Maaan .. that shank and ben ... team doofus had the hair on my 
neck up ... when "Shouting Out" to the group - You were the one 
I was firstly intending that for and damn it you got left off 
the list!

Hey UK Citizen - glad your back in full effect and "HOLDIN IT 
DOWN" !!!

Im suspicious of the factual content, but it makes for such an 
interesting convo ... if any else can verify this story as true 
or pure bullshit - please feel free. Warren Christopher and Bill 
Clinton?

But .....

"Terrorist pilot Mohammad Atta blew up a bus in
Israel in 1986. The Israelis captured, tried and imprisoned him. 
As part of
the Oslo agreement with the Palestinians in 1993, Israel had to 
agree to
release so-called "political prisoners." However, the Israelis 
would not
release any with "blood on their hands." The American President 
at the time,
Bill Clinton, and his Secretary of State, Warren 
Christopher, "insisted"
that all prisoners be released. Thus Mr. Atta was freed and 
eventually
"thanked the US" by flying an airplane into Tower One of the 
World Trade
Center. This was reported by many of the American TV networks at 
the time
that the terrorists were first identified. It was censored in 
the US from
all later reports."

Looks like it's one of those 'urban legends'.

http://www.snopes2.com/rumors/atta.htm

Missed you, Missin'!  Welcome back.
Way  to go, Eagle Eye--but perhaps they're too young to 
understand.

E.S.D. good info as usual, thanks.

Another urban legend (can be found at site cited above) is that 
4,000 Jews were not at work on 9/11...

The "4,000 Jews" page is easily forwarded as e-mail, and this 
may explain the message's rapid dissemination.

The Information Times article makes three charges:

1) Citing the Jordanian newspaper Al-Watan, it alleges 
that "Israelis remained absent [on Sept. 11] based on hints from 
the Israeli General Security Apparatus, the Shabak." No media 
source except Al-Manar claims to have actually seen the 
editorial in Al-Watan, which the Jordanian Embassy's information 
bureau describes as an obscure newspaper with a low circulation. 
Al-Watan's source? Unnamed "Arab diplomatic sources."  (A few 
newspapers called Al-Watan have Web sites  though none seem to 
be based in Jordan.)

If you think for just one second that we are going to buy in on 
the supposed suicide on TV by your sick, Queer, drug-infested 
sons, you are seriously brain dead. Your bunch of poppy headed 
faggots either think they are bound for virgins and plentiful 
fruit or they, like you, run and hide. We are not afraid of your 
sick little idiots ranting in the streets wearing bombs and 
white sheets. We have had the KKK in this country for longer 
than you sick little roaches have been alive. Islam is DEAD, 
like over! Your sick demented lying pack of queers is like a wet 
dream, FAKE and made up in your own sick little mind. If you do 
commit suicide, I'll be sure to celebrate! and we will send the 
KKK to finish your sons off! Have a nice death Osama, meet your 
maker! Suicide is the act of a coward, a pissy whiny COWARD! You 
only think as you do because you are strung out on heroin, brain 
dead IDIOT!

U.S. forces dropped a 15,000-pound "daisy cutter" bomb on a cave 
in the Tora Bora area Sunday where "substantial al Qaeda forces 
would be, and possibly including senior leadership," said Rear 
Adm. John Stufflebeem, a Pentagon spokesman. He had no 
information on whether anyone was killed.

A fuckin 15,000-pound daisy cutter?I "think"there might be 
a"few"dead.If they aint dead,they're deaf.

Johnny Walker, who found Islam at an early age (16), he, lacking 
for direction, found, read, and then followed the teachings from 
the good book, the Koran.  He then, as a rebellious teen went to 
Pakistan to lend aid with premis of following a cause he 
believed.  This new Muslim, then was indocrinated by the radical 
Pakistani Taliban Mullahs.  He drank of the poison coolaid and 
blindly followed.  Like the youngster trying crack cocaine for 
the first time, there was no turning back.  He was hooked.  He's 
just like you Ben, who blindly follows your leftists college 
professor's.

John
E pluribus unum

Like everyone I do not know what to do with Johnny Walker.  I 
feel sorry for the little rat bastard.  I too, like you Ben was 
young and dumb once, just like little Johnny.  His future 
certainly doesn't look bright.  What in the world do we do with 
this punk?  What in the world do we do with little punks like 
you Ben?  Maybe you'll come around.  But I doubt it.

John
E...

.


Correction!!!

I was young and dumb once.  But NEVER as dumb as Johnny or you 
Ben.

John
E...

Hey Ben,
You still hanging around, or did you get your feelings hurt and 
leave?  I told you...you let yourself in for a world of grief 
here.  I think several people have made excellent points in 
regard to your post.  My choice for the winner is that you have 
a very narrow view of things due to your belief in things you've 
been spoon fed at college.  One thing that you probably don't 
realize at your age is that there IS no black and white.  At 
your age, people tend to see things all black or all white, with 
no shades of gray.  Those shades tend to come, as Eagle-Eye 
mentioned, with time and life experience.  You have an 
opportunity here to learn from those of us who have lived beyond 
college.  Perhaps if you stick around, you'll begin to see some 
of those shades of gray, and begin to question what you've been 
taught.  Learn to look at all sides before making your 
judgements, and you'll certainly avoid being made a fool of as 
you have been here.  Good Luck with your education...I hope you 
realize it shouldn't ALL come from your college texts.

Ben,
One thing I forgot to mention...the only reason I am speaking to 
you with any respect whatsoever after the comments you made is 
that I recognise that you ARE intelligent enough to learn.  

You really make me awfully uncomfortable using that name to spew 
hatred.  Would you at least consider a different name, please?

Hi U.K. Citizen,
Thanks for the welcome back.  I share your concern about our 
move toward Iraq at this time.  I believe that we HAVE to do 
something about Hussein, but without more cause than we are 
showing now, I really worry about starting a World War.  You 
made the comment that we have enough power to take Iraq on 
alone, and that's correct.  But, do we have enough power to also 
take on all the countries that MIGHT jump to Iraq's defense?  
And, if even one...let's say Iran...jumped in, and we had NO 
allies willing or able to be involved...could it strain our 
resources enough that some of the others might move in for a 
chance to topple the only remaining superpower in the world?

I fear the outcome might be far from certain if we go in without 
world support.  I don't like thinking about which way every 
country in the world might jump.  I'm afraid that our allies 
might jump back, and their allies might jump in to gang up on us 
while they had a chance.  And, would our allies then rally?

At this point, I'm really hoping that Merlyn is right and that 
Hussein will make that fatal mistake that will unite the world 
against him to finally eradicate him.  In the meanwhile, didn't 
we revoke the law that we had saying that we couldn't send 
mercenaries to assassinate him?  Why don't we just do that?

A question for you Ben.  When you were 16 years old did you see 
things as as you see them today.  Or have you learned some 
since?  Do you think it is possible you will rethink your views 
and see them differently at the age of say.. 30 or 35?  We here 
have learned with real-world life experience, not campus 
professor provided leftists propaganda that reviles the American 
way of life.  When I was brought up I was taught how terrible 
our great system is, but still the best this world has ever 
witnessed.

John
E...

Okay Eagle-Eye,
I know I'm probably going to incur your wrath here.  But, I'm 
worried.  And, I sincerely want to know what the thoughts are of 
all the intelligent posters here.

During the campaign debates, Bush made the comment that he would 
pull our peace-keeping troops out of countries when it doesn't 
serve OUR interests to keep them there.  He commented that we 
should only get involved if it serves our interests.  Gore 
immediately stopped him and asked "What about in the case of 
genocide?" And, Bush responded...only if it serves our 
interests.  Do you think that Bush's opinion has changed now 
that we all understand that our interests are world-wide?

A much bigger concern of mine is regarding a post that E.S.D. (I 
think) upped concerning the invoking of Article 5.  It seems to 
me that some of the countries that signed that NATO resolution 
might be feeling put upon to have had it invoked for the first 
time in 42 years by Bush due to the volatility of the Middle 
East as a whole.  Article 5 says that an attack on one, is to be 
considered as an attack on all...and demands that the other 
nations be involved in helping defend the attacked country.  I'm 
thinking that if there had been attacks on England, or France, 
or any other country of a similar magnitude of the attacks here, 
there would be more support for us...specifically toward Iraq.
I guess I'm just afraid that invoking Article 5, especially 
after he had rejected treaties that had been agreed upon, might 
not have been a politically smart move.  What do you think?

Do you think he'll go after Iraq strictly on the basis that they 
have not complied with U.N. investigations?  Who do you think 
might defend Iraq?  Who do you think might side with us against 
Iraq?  Do you think this could become a World War?

I really would like to hear all of your thoughts on these things.

N.C. Gal, I hope your son is doing well. Thanks for the welcome 
back.

In respect for you I shall, but remember this and remember this 
well. It is exactly what the Koran and Allah does, spew hatred! 
It has been done to demonstrate a reality that the "servant of 
Allah" is just that, Blasphemous. There are many here that can 
easily shove the Servant of Allah a plate full of his own 
medicine! A blasphemist wrote the Koran, hatred runs through all 
of it and it is not fit to be compared to Christianity or 
Judaism. Not that any dogmatic interpretation is good, but if 
you read the Koran remember this verse "they will have their 
religion and we will have ours" it clearly demonstrates intent. 
Other verses include "And the great and merciful Allah will 
punish non believers with disease of the body". Before you 
criticize my anger, read the Koran, save your self some time and 
read just the last few verses. Look it up on a search engine. 
Your view of Muslims and Allah will change for good. And 
remember Christ when he found thieves in the house of God, yes 
he was angry! This is very much the same! How these people can 
spout the Koran and Allah as God & god's word would put Christ 
in a fit of fury!

Good Morning, John!
I'd be willing to bet that you'd never find "Atlas Shrugged" on 
Ben's required reading list, wouldn't you?  It sure ought to be 
on EVERY students reading list.  But, since it goes so much 
against the grain of the liberal policies of the colleges, I 
can't imagine that it's ever even mentioned.

I appreciate your choosing another name very much.  I truly have 
no problem with your anger...we are ALL angry.  But, I do feel 
that it's misdirected.  I have the Koran bookmarked already, 
Thanks.  I think the danger is always in looking at people as 
groups, rather than as individuals.  There are many Muslims who 
come here in support of America's fight against the Taliban and 
bin Laden.  My concern is that they might believe that our 
entire nation holds the views that you do.  I consider your view 
as racist, and I cannot agree with it.  But, this is 
America...and I respect your right to have it, and to speak it 
freely.  Just remember this, if you speak that you view all 
Muslims as evil, some of them reading your words might view all 
of us as just as evil.  For, what you are doing is exactly the 
same thing that you are railing against the Koran for doing...is 
it not?

http://www.rawa.org/

Do you think he'll go after Iraq strictly on the basis that they 
                 have not complied with U.N. investigations?  Who 
do you think 
                might defend Iraq?  Who do you think might side 
with us against 
                       Iraq?  Do you think this could become a 
World War?

 He'll go after Iraq with the excuse that they haven't complied 
with U.N.investigations,but we all know why he's Really going 
there....Dad's unfinished business.Which we should have taken 
care of in 91,but what the hell.
 When we go after Iraq,we will lose some allies(watch Pakistan's 
movements in the near future).
 If(when)we go after Iraq,watch Iran,Somalia,Sudan,U.A.E,Saudi 
Araba,Jordan,and Syria for indications of what will happen 
next.If the majority of these stay out of it,we'll be fine.If 
they jump in,read Revelation again.

Walter,
That's exactly what I'm afraid of.  You couldn't have stated my 
position more clearly. Thanks!

Evil, no misguided by a false prophet, yes. Have you gotten 
around to the end of the Koran yet? It is a collection of 
lessons. Some very relevant, but a thread of hate sewn into it 
that is undeniable.

You might want to look at the Torah,also.
 You sound like you are filled with hate,and are looking for 
evidence of it everywhere.You don't have to search for it....its 
all around you,in America,and everywhere else.Never squint to 
read a billboard.

That is somewhat better, Thanks.  No, I haven't read the end of 
the Koran.  The reason I haven't is because I have been told by 
other people for whom I have respect that the Koran is much like 
the Bible in that you can take anything out of context and make 
it sound however you want.

Regardless of that, I HAVE read the Bible.  And, it says to me 
quite clearly that it is not my job to judge.  God will take 
care of that.  I was also instructed to love my fellow man...no 
instructions to disregard any race or religion.  And, I was 
instructed to do unto others as I would have them do unto me.  
Therefore...I prefer to live and let live.  I'm also an 
American, a loyal and patriotic one.  And, in this country, you 
are allowed to read, believe, and even preach anything you want 
to.  And, I have the right to disagree with anything I don't 
believe.  Again...live and let live.

My point was strictly that when you go about beating up ALL 
people of a certain race or religion with your words...you are 
taking the risk that some of them will believe that we are ALL 
like that.  In my opinion, this puts us at even more 
risk...because we are viewed as being just as stubborn as you 
say they are.  It's not all black and white...

Preach on sister Missin'!

*chuckle*  Now you're scaring me!

Nah.  I think you hit the nail right on the head.  I myself 
don't follow any organized religion, but I do believe that all 
the points you made in regards to the way we should treat other 
people are totally correct.  If most of the people in the world 
would just respect each other's views, as long as they don't 
infringe on the rights of others, then the world would be a much 
better place to live in.  Keep up the great posts.

Perhaps you guys would like to know this:

http://www.iwpr.net/index.pl?archive/rca/rca_200112_91_4_eng.txt

LONDON (IWPR): The London-based Institute for War and Peace 
Reporting has reported from Khanabad, Uzbekistan, that the US 
air 
base in this city is receiving daily flights carrying dead and 
injured US soldiers. Uzbek sources at Khanabad suggest that the 
real figures of US casualties are far higher than the Pentagon's 
official totals. Uzbek army personnel working at the air base 
said 
scores of US casualties have been arriving there. From November 
25 to December 2, an Uzbek orderly working with American medical 
staff said he had witnessed the arrival of four to five US heli-
copters - carrying between them 10-15 American casualties - each
day. The orderly said the US staff he was helping confirmed the
casualties coming off the aircraft were Americans. 

A reporter who managed to enter the air base with a group of 
visiting Uzbek parents said that one whole floor of a building 
and four large canvas tents were full of injured US soldiers, 
who 
have suffered shrapnel and bullet wounds to the arms, leg and 
head. The airport sources could not confirm how many incoming 
casualties had died. One Uzbek soldier said that since October 
15 he had helped US servicemen load 20 body bags onto American 
transport planes. But he could not confirm whether they were 
dead US soldiers. 

But there is other evidence of American fatalities. One Uzbek 
officer said US soldiers had told him that four of their 
comrades 
had died of their wounds on December 1 while being airlifted to 
Khanabad. An Uzbek pilot spoke of the death last week of an 
American soldier who he had become friendly with while he was 
on the base. The US serviceman, he said, had died in the attempt 
to end the prison riot on the outskirts of Mazar-e-Sharif two 
weeks ago. "A lot of American troops died there - it was a real 
battle, " the pilot said. 

Uzbek army personnel say the atmosphere on the base has changed
distinctly in the last week or so. They say that in October when 
the Americans began deploying at the airport, they were gung-ho, 
telling their Uzbek counterparts that it would take no more than 
a month and a half to defeat the Taleban and al-Qaeda. While the 
Taleban appear to be on their last legs, al-Qaeda fighters 
continue 
to resist in mountain redoubts, with some US servicemen at 
Khanabad 
now resigned to a long haul. Uzbek military staff say 
frustration 
at this is noticeable. They say they have witnessed growing 
tensions
among American troops, often overhearing arguments and shouting 
matches.

Some people say that i'm a bad guy; they may be right...they may 
be right. It's not that i'm not trying-I just f..k-up, try as I 
might.

Is it just me or does Tarik Aziz sound like the nomenclature of 
an armpit fungus?  Just curious.

Well well, post a message, leave for the night, come home 
and hear myself called everything from a zealot to the 
antichrist basically.  Isn't it nice to wade into the world of 
the brainwashed? 
     In any case, yes, I am intelligent, scored in the top 35% 
of the world on my SATs which I was fortunate enough to take in 
7th grade.  And no, I am not currently, have not been in the 
past, and will not ever attend college.  
     Now, that being established, how is it that I can be 
spoonfed by leftist professors?  I hardly consider myself to be 
spoonfed by anyone.  Luckily, I've had enough time and presence 
of mind to realize what's really going on today, and I knew that 
what I posted would be replied to, probably in the most assanine 
way imaginable, by a bunch of brainwashed culture-whores, and a 
few intelligent people who just happen to have a different 
viewpoint.  So be it.
     Yes, and in case you haven't noticed, I'm here, I haven't 
run off to my own little world of pop radio and cable TV, but 
obviously, unlike most of you, I do have a life to attend to, 
and I can't be expected to check in every hour to see who 
disagrees with me.
     In closing, if any of you really feel the need to try to 
defend your viewpoints to me I can be reached on AIM as 
theraven39, but if you just want to vent, then fuck off and find 
someone who gives a shit.

TigerChan,
In this country we sometimes as children play a game 
called "Gossip".  In this game, the first person in a circle of 
people makes a statement, he tells the second person, the second 
tells the third and so on.  It sounds to me as though the 
reporter who wrote that article was reporting a whole bunch of 
second and third-hand information.  I would find it difficult to 
believe these hearsay accounts over the factual reporting that 
has included names, ranks and stations of the FOUR that we have 
been told have died.  We do know that many more than 4 have been 
wounded...but again, the reporter is again printing 
hearsay...not what he has actually seen.

Who knows if it is true or not.  The Bush administration is 
probably covering up some of the true stories of the war so 
Americans will continue to support our effort in Afghanistan.  
It is expected to have some casualties and I am sure we have not 
heard of all of the Americans and Britains that have died so 
far.  They are probably picking and choosing which casualties we 
will hear about.  They will pick the ones that will offer the 
greatest sympathies toward our armed forces.  Honestly no one 
over here will know the real truth as to how many casualties we 
really have.  Just speculation.

"I am a white, lower middle class, non-muslim student."

Okay, I'm curious.  What kind of student are you, if not 
college?  Technical School, maybe?

Re: SATs-Member of Duke University's Talent Identification 
Program?  That's how my daughter was able to take her SAT's last 
year in the 7th grade.  Oh, and I scored in the top 2% of the 
country...not to pat myself on the back.  Just to say that if I 
find that there are many intelligent posters here, perhaps you 
might too?

The reality is, Ben, that I feel no NEED to defend my views to 
anyone.  The reason I try to speak to people such as yourself 
with respect and to appeal to your intelligence is because I 
know that I am in the majority of good thinking people in this 
country.  The radical few...like you, are seriously misguided, 
in my opinion.  However, if you don't choose to stay and defend 
YOUR opinions, I'll understand...since you ARE in the minority.

Oh, and it's spelled ASININE  

as i nine [ ss'n n ] adjective 

1.  ridiculous:  utterly ridiculous or lacking sense

2.  like an ass:  relating to or resembling an ass
 

Justice,
Weren't there 15 British troops killed?  I bet those were loaded 
on American helicopters to be moved...don't you think?

I wouldn't doubt it.  There are many things that our government 
probably hides from us.  I am not saying that they shouldn't 
because there are many things that they probably keep from us to 
protect the general public.  As long as I still get my paychecks 
and there is somewhat a feeling of safety in my life then I 
could care less.

perhaps the bodies are being flown to another location for ID 
purposes, they could possibly be bodies and or parts  of taliban 
members who may somewhat fit the description of suspected 
taliban leaders?

If those were American soldiers, we would know it!

The U.S. military has no reason to hid those kinds of stats from 
the American public... 

In your post you stated:"The U.S. military has no reason to hid 
those kinds of stats from the American public..."

As a veteran of the Vietnam conflict, I am very familiar with 
what the government does with stats. They were hidden back then 
and I am sure that they are doing the same thing with the 
Afghanistan issue. I see no reason wht they would change now.

Why do you think that they would not conceal these type of stats 
now? 

Well well, post a message, leave for the night, come home 
                     and hear myself called everything from a 
zealot to the 
                 antichrist basically.  Isn't it nice to wade 
into the world of 
                                        the brainwashed? 

But then again,that's why you posted in the first place wasn't 
it?Oh enlightened one!Verily I pray unto thee,lead me through the 
paths that thou hast chosen,and I will follow!Thou hast posted in 
red to let us know that thou art the anointed one!I beg of 
you,turn off the Playstation,and GIVE US A SIGN!LOL!!!!

Everyman: Reference to post, Dated: Sun Dec 9 04:24:13. Thanks 
for following up the article I found. I would never have noticed 
if hadn't needed to go through the back-copies of the newspapers 
I'd kept. This in regard to a Mr.Afroz arrested as you say, in 
India, on suspicion of plotting attacks in Britian and other 
nations. I happened to think this was a fairly important story, 
nothing more was made of it in the U.K press possibly because at 
this stage at least the proof against this individual is not 
sufficiently incontrovertible, but nonetheless a lot of the 
pieces do fit into place. It looks as though in this case, the 
intelligence services involved have done their job. 

Oh and by the way, when you're rich and famous and the royalties 
do indeed start coming in from your chart debut (still holding 
at number 2), please Everyman..don't forget your friends here:).

Merlyn: In an earlier post I made comparison to what happened 
in '41 and what happened 3 months ago. You're quite right, the 
nature of those attacks were completely different in who and 
what they targeted. The grounds on which I would draw comparison 
were only that they were 'surprise' attacks and that as a 
result, the foriegn policy of the U.S. government and the 
atitude of it's citizens to the outside world perhaps changed 
somewhat. Direct comparisons between these two horrific events 
are limited, but I was promted to raise some comparison as a 
rememberance ceremony was held just last week at Pearl Harbour 
where some surviving sailors returned there for the very first 
time accompanied by their families, since the attack in 1941. It 
was for them, obviously a very moving experiance to say the 
least. Representatives of the New York fire department were also 
in attendance, and who had themselves been called to duty, on 
Sept 11 2001. Let's hope you're wrong about any possible 
occurances between now and Christmas! All of your posts are 
thought provoking. I do hope your still reading the board.

EagleEye: Your post: Dated: Tue Dec 11 01:29:28. I'm sure that's 
news to a lot of people, and not very pleasant news at that...

Missin': I can't vouch for my knowledge on this matter. I can 
only offer my opinion, which quite honestly is limited. Just 
like the Afghan factions that met in Bonn, it's the old carrot 
and stick approach that comes into operation. The offer of 
financial inducements from the richer nations, trade/aid and 
such like, to set Afghanistan on the start of a very long road 
of getting itself back on it's feet, is of course one way to 
deal with things. It's difficult for me to say for sure with 
nations such as Iran and Syria who have their own agendas, as to 
which 'approach' (if I can dare say that word) is best. Mr.Straw 
our Foriegn Secratary, at a guess, may try the carrot approach 
in the act of gaining closer links at the diplomatic level, and 
in turn, gaining more influence in that way. I don't how much 
these international diplomats and foreign secrataries earn, but 
it's at times like these, where they'll really have to earn 
their money. Rule number 1 is to avoid unnecassary conflict if 
at all possible, but then again all countries were 'put on 
notice' that international terrorism was simply no longer going 
to be tolerated. I'm sure at governmental level the diplomats 
involved are testing the waters. Involvement in Iraq, is no 
doubt a completely different undertaking. Missin' I'm not really 
very knowledable on such matters. The pursuit of evidence of 
weapons of mass destruction, I'd would say is a possible avenue 
down which to proceed. As theE.S.D. has highlighted any possible 
links from within Iraq to organisations such as Al-Qaeda is 
probably the favoured option to proceed on, and at least the 
grounds upon possible military activity in that Iraq are at 
least 'seen' in that respect, to be consistant. I'm sure 
coalition governments would tread carefully and avoid any 
unwanted escalation in tensions in the region, shall we say. If 
the diplomats do their jobs right hopefully, no one single 
country will be left to take on the entire 'burden' on its own. 
The U.S. and it's coalition partners prepared well 
diplomatically and militarily before acting in Afghanistan, I'm 
sure, (or at least I hope) they'll do the same 'IF' Iraq is next 
on the list.  Although don't rule out Somalia. As far as the use 
of mercenaries is concerned, I can't comment upon that with any 
great authority as to its legitimacy, but it does sound like a 
most pleasing option!

John: It's nice to see you back, and to read your posts.   

50 men that worked for Cantor Fitzgerald held hands and prayed 
as they awaited their deaths as the floors got hotter and hotter 
and hotter,   THEY KNEW THEY WERE GOING TO DIE.  They never did 
anything to anyone to deserve a death like that.  Every day, I 
walk up the block to the deli and in the window is a picture of 
him and his daughter hugging and laughing.  The crayon 
handrwritten pleas on her note, keep saying, DADDY, WHEN ARE YOU 
COMING HOME?  WHEN ARE YOU COMING HOME?  Please think of all the 
people at Cantor Fitzerald that are not able to be alive and hug 
their children.  Think of the nightmare Christmas their family 
is going through.   THink of all of them.  Think of the cops and 
fireman and heroes that were crushed to death as their last 
thoughts in their final moments on earth where to save other 
peoppple.  Everyone, when you go to sleep tonight and your head 
hits the pillow and you pull your comforter up to your chin, 
thank the universe or whatever powers may be that you have this 
moment.  Cherish it.  Cherish life.  We cherish life like they 
cherished theirs.   FIFTY MEN SAT ON THE FLOOR AND HELD HANDS 
WAITING FOR DEATH TO COME.  THE MINUTES TICKING 
AWAY.............. WHY?  WHY?  WHY?  WHY?  WHY?  WHY? WHY?  
I walk the streeets and see the Christmas lights and they are 
pretty but why cant the victims see it?  I want them all to be 
alive.  I want the people in Pentagon to have their loved ones 
alive and I want the heros that took down the plane in 
Pennsylvania to save others to be alive and well.  On September 
11th,  St. Vincent's hospital:  All the doctors in their scrubs, 
the nurses, the gurneys, waiting outside at the entrance to the 
hospital for the people that would never come, never come, never 
come.  WHY?  GODDAMMIT WHY????????????????????

I remember seeing the movie, The Mummy Returns, where we have
the WWF star wrestler..the Rock playing the Scorpion King being
lond dead. Then there come a man who revives him and he is
about to be killed by the Scorpion King. He pleads not to be
killed and points to another person .."he is your enemy". Unsure
of who is actually the enemy, the Scorpion King replies, "We'll
see ..!!"

This troubles me what are the Americans doing in Afghanistan.
Don't they know that Afghans are real bastards. They have long
history of changing attitude quickly. They may have a good
attitude for a moment, then the next moment they might shoot you
back. The so-called paid anti-Taliban gang maybe fighting the
Taliban now, perhaps when you start to distrust them they may
be thinking of killing you next. The land of Afghanistan, no
one is safe there. If you want to be there, do your job quickly
and get off their land. I am almost certain that we see more
American dead. Just imagine this, the Americans give them 
weapons, its the killing nature of those Afghans that they will
try shooting any target ... perhaps shooting Americans for the
fun of it. You see ... I wouldn't want to go to Afghanistan.
Everyone is carrying guns, grenades ...even their 12-year old
kid is strong enough to point an AK-47 at you. Remember you
carpet-bombed their people, at least a few survivors will have
something in mind.

We'll see ..... start counting the dead.

As the world will see tomorrow, Osama is a sick boy. He sent the 
hijackers on the planes, unknowing that they were committing 
suicide. Only those who were pilots knew what was going to 
happen. All this for his own personal gain. 
Anyone who supports this sick boy is going to see just how wrong 
they are.
Islam is dead. they kill their own, betray their own, the only 
answer is that they are strung out on drugs, we should never 
fear such weak, sick maggots.
Never in my life have I seen such a lost bunch of scum. Live and 
let die!
Merlyn/|\ 

Does anyone know why we would need to deny American 
Casualties in public? Personally, If I heard that Americans 
had been killed in battle, it would strengthen my resolve to 
win the war. I don't know, maybe most Americans feel that if 
we start dying its time to give up...That's weak. I don't want 
American soldiers to die, but I'm not going to dodge the draft 
so I won't have to. We're defending freedom here, that costs 
something and it is worth something! I know that our 
government probably has lied to us about parts of this war 
and about many other things in the past, but I wish they 
wouldn't. Honesty would go much farther with me than 
cover-ups. I'm a grown-up, I can take it like a man. Why can't 
I know the truth? Shoot, UK voice is coming back to me with 
his movie quotes "You can't handle the truth!" haha. Oh well, 
I will try to find out as much as possible. Truth matters.

As for Ben - fairly impressive for a high school student. You 
have no idea what you're in for as far as life-lessons. More 
can happen to you in one year to change you than you can 
possibly imagine. Just remember what John said - imagine 
how your outlook on life has changed from 5 years ago, then  
try to imagine 5-10 years from now thinking exactly as you 
do today. Bad odds. So you've been indoctrinated by 
someone, or simply chosen to take a stand on something 
without a foundation. We have a lot to learn everyday - you 
and I both. Life is hard and life is not fair- everone learns it 
sooner or later. 
As for the lower middle class qualifier...I wouldn't be 
surprised if you were one of those people who believed that 
a lower middle class income is 80k/year. I went to school 
with people whose parents made over 200k/year and they 
thought they were "middle class" drove me nuts, I always 
though I was pretty well-off growing up, but my parents didn't 
think they were rich either. Can't believe everything they tell 
you huh?

Sorry for the needless seguay, but I just didn't see why that 
had anything to do with your post. You are who you are...

Take care all!

First couple SHOULD read..

I can't vouch for my knowledge on this matter, which quite 
honestly is limited. I can only offer my opinion.

----

My knowledge is indeed limited, but my opinions...slightly less 
so.

"Does anyone know why we would need to deny American 
Casualties in public? Personally, If I heard that Americans 
had been killed in battle, it would strengthen my resolve to 
win the war. I don't know, maybe most Americans feel that if 
we start dying its time to give up...That's weak."

Sadly enough we do have people here in the States that think 
that Noah.  They want peace and safety but don't want to occur 
any penalties in doing so.  That is who the government protects 
against when they don't tell us the whole story.  Unless you 
have top secret clearance in the government, you will never know 
the real story.  I emailed Al-Jazeera the other day to see if 
they have a website in English.  Unfortunately they don't but 
they told me they might be considering it.  Hopefully they will 
soon so we can all see their perspective on this war.

WE WILL NEVER FORGET!!  FDNY

"Well well, post a message, leave for the night, come home 
and hear myself called everything from a zealot to the 
antichrist basically."

Im sure you hear a great many things in your head .... but I 
think the term your looking for is "read".  Why is it that only 
those who do well on the SAT can have an "open" and larger 
than "small mind"?

Do have a boyfriend named UK Voices - you two assholes sound 
soooo much alike .... soooo many words just taking up bandwidth 
with zero merit and nothing to say ......



"Isn't it nice to wade into the world of the brainwashed? "

For such a "enlightened" one - you sure a stero-typing bigoted 
little puke.


"In any case, yes, I am intelligent, scored in the top 35% 
of the world on my SATs which I was fortunate enough to take in 
7th grade."

Boy ... how it shows .........


"And no, I am not currently, have not been in the 
past, and will not ever attend college."

So I guess your a student of fudge packing?  TruckMasters is a 
great place of higher learning.
  
"I hardly consider myself to be spoonfed by anyone."

Evidently neither do you consider yourself imperfect, nor 
arrogant, or elitist - but guess what ......?  

"Luckily, I've had enough time and presence 
of mind to realize what's really going on today, and I knew that 
what I posted would be replied to, probably in the most assanine 
way imaginable, by a bunch of brainwashed culture-whores, and a 
few intelligent people who just happen to have a different 
viewpoint.  So be it."

And - what exactly is going on today?  Global Warming got your 
pantoids all in a bunch this month?


Woooo hooooo jingo boy!  culture whores ... thats a pretty 
applicable term here ....... I suppose you prefer the culture in 
Cambodia?  Who you kidding fool-  besides your pathetic self.

     "Yes, and in case you haven't noticed, I'm here, I haven't 
run off to my own little world of pop radio and cable TV"

Nope - just AOL .... phhhhhfffffft


"unlike most of you, I do have a life to attend to, 
and I can't be expected to check in every hour to see who 
disagrees with me."

Page 1, paragraph two of the UK Voices manual on how to be an 
asshole ... anyone recall this kinda crap.  Nor can you be 
expected to actually address or backup ANY of your points about 
all us brainwashed culture whores you look down on from your 
self imposed SAT pedastal.


     "In closing, if any of you really feel the need to try to 
defend your viewpoints to me"

I really dont ... you defend none of yours to anyone here - only 
accusations based upon stereotypes and your ill conceived, inane 
opinions.

"I can be reached on AIM as 
theraven39, but if you just want to vent, then fuck off and find 
someone who gives a shit."

Vent like you?  Fuck yourself.

Americans don't get the truth because they don't want the truth.
Every time death is shown on the news there is a flood of calls 
to the TV station that aired it,and the station is told how 
offensive it was,and that it was wrong to show it.
 If you will think about it,the US,and its people couldn't be 
bothered about Afganistan children or the women's rights 
there,and the information about what's been going on there has 
been available for YEARS.But suddenly we CARE.How very big of us 
to notice once it was time to bomb them.
 http://paknews.com/top.php?id=1&date1=2001-11-21  Go there and 
look at THEIR dead from our stray bombs.Oh yeah,it was an 
accident,so I guess that makes it OK in America.
 http://paknews.com/main.php?id=5&date1=2001-12-11 Look here also 
if any of you have any courage.Of course,many will say it's a 
pack of lies,since the news is not from the U.S.,because no one 
in America ever lies.Protecting freedom eveywhere?My fuckin ass.

As Eagle-Eye appropriately pointed out before, why would we get 
a report about 3 of our soldiers being killed by FRIENDLY fire 
if they were hiding information about dead soldiers?  That 
doesn't make sense to me.  I don't believe that there have been 
more than the 4 reported American deaths.  The article upped by 
TigerChan, even though written as hearsay, numbered body bags at 
about 20...4 of ours and the 15 Brits that I read about a couple 
of weeks ago would make that number just about right...wouldn't 
it?

Haha...oh applause to all of you.  If I wasn't used to this 
sort of hypocracy and circular logic from debating with strict 
christians, I might be bothered by your collective inability to 
see anything outside what you've been programmed to see all your 
lives.  
     I've read too far through all of this to remember your 
individual names, or really give a shit, really, so I'll just 
comment on a few things I can think of off the top of my head.
     Let's see, one of you bragged about your child being the 
top 2% of the nation.  Now, the united states and the world as a 
whole are two very different arenas basically, and thanks for 
the definitions.  If I can make you feel just a little better 
about your sad little life, then feel free to make yourself feel 
superior to me.  Doesn't really bother me. Hell, if it did, I 
might actually be like one of you right now.
     Anyway, ahh yes, EagleEye, you pathetic little shit, you're 
are possibly one of the most asanine,(thanks again, whoever that 
was)hypocrital pieces of shit that I have ever had the 
misfortune to come across.  You have the balls to call me 
arrogant when you assume you know enough about me to be able to 
judge me.  I admit, I'm elitest, it saves a lot of time.  It 
bores me to argue with the mass of you about the same issues 
over and over.  I do get a kick out of how you hate me though.  
Hell, if you didn't I'd wonder what I was doing wrong.
     Well, anyway, beyond all that, while I was looking for some 
tablature, not a single one of you who piss and moan about my 
ideology on here, had the balls to get into a real conversation 
with me.  What're you afraid of?  That I might be right?  That 
evertything you've ever believed in just may be bullshit?
     Well, it doesn't matter really.  I doubt any of you would 
confront me with anything original and thought provoking, I 
suspect a few of you would even fall back on the old cliches. 
Ahh yes, how many times have I heard, "If you don't like this 
country, why don't you just get out?"  
     That's enough of a stroll down memory lane.  I guess I'll 
just be back to check on all of you later.  Have fun commenting 
on this post.

Oh, and Walter, nice job.  Glad to see some intellect is still 
out there somewhere.

I have to give a few of you credit here, I'm sure we all 
know those gung-ho, war crazed, ignorant little people in real 
life, a couple of them have posted here. But for the most part, 
this is just sad. Ben seems to be at a disadvantage, some of you 
post five or six times a day, while he posts...what, once. All 
your talk about age, and the future, and college...those are sad 
excusses for a defense. Can't anyone reply to what he's saying, 
and not just who he is, it shouldn't fucking matter how old he 
is, or what he plans to do with his life, the fact is, you 
people don't have anything real to say, so you pick on his 
age...or wording. What the hell was witht that guy? I think, 
anyone who has such a strong opinion on what is right and wrong, 
doesn't need this bullshit. People here quoting their various 
religious texts...just propaganda. Everyday, its all over, you 
know, they started planning what to do with post war Afghanistan 
before the Northern Alliance held even one city. No one is right 
in this 'war'. This is just the U.S flexing its muscles, and 
trying to recover some pride that was lost 9-11-01. I enjoyed 
it...really, by the end of the day I was laughing at the all-
purpose speeches Bush was spewing. This isn't about terrorism. 
This is hardly justice...it's blind rage. Anyone who has ever 
embarassed the U.S has faced the same fate...desturction, and 
then a pathetic rebuilding into a mini america. You know all of 
us are going to be the ones dealing with this 'war' this is not 
going to be over. Until opression is stopped, and there is no 
upper class, or third world nation, someone is always going to 
be fighting for their beliefs...any you know what? That is more 
than America will ever be able to say, so all of you, just fuck 
off and think about the shit you've ignored.

I'm not saying to anybody that we shouldn't have attacked.I'm 
saying stop turning it into a big bullshit humanitarian game.We 
need to kill every one of the people in these terrorist 
groups,and destroy the people who financed and aided them in any 
way.Trial?I don't recall a trial on 9-11!Kill em all!

Hi all,

First, 
Tiger-Chan, 
as usual, you poor lost, lost soul you are still a million miles 
from reality...

Missin',
Interesting that you mention a work by Ayn Rand.
A friend actually sent me a copy of the Ayn Rand video, "a sense 
of life."  I was just sitting down to finish watching it.  (Yes 
we now have electricity... at least enough to power the video 
cassette machine.  I find it excellent so far, and look forward 
to reading Atlas Shrugged.  I'm sure it is as great as it is 
rumored.  As being one who has been around many religions and 
sects in my interesteing life, I find it very intellectually 
stimulating.

To all,
I apologize for my absence. Afghansas.com needed a little 
attention along with other important afairs.

Hope to find more time to read and participate here.

May you be blessed a thousand blessings from above,
Mullah Enaud
 
Please visit our new state site:
www.Afghansas.com

Yeah, the AIM screen name intrigued me, I think I'll put myself 
out there for anyone with some balls, or ideas worth hearing can 
talk to me, my screen name is Archiee666...I'll be pretty damn 
impressed if anyone messages me.

Nice to have some support, even beyond that, it was a nicely 
phrased litte blurb.  I'm impressed.  

Walter,

You should add a verse to that very song.  You may even win $100!

http://afghansas.com/song.asp

May you be blessed a thousand blessings from above,
Mullah Enaud
 
Please visit our new state site:
www.Afghansas.com

According to past experience those countries you mention will 
come and support Iraq if it is gaining from the  attack, if not, 
they will just voice their concern or who knows support US. Just 
look at afghan war. Hope you know what I mean and I also don't 
think Iran and Saudi will support Iraq, they would probably stay 
at the side line. They know who Saddam is especially the Saudi 
Rulers

This war against Terrorism is more of a educational war against 
the radicals Muslims to try to make them understand that Islam 
does not teach you to kill or force non Islam into this 
religion. Once this people understand and want to live in peace 
and harmony with other religion, the world would be at peace.

The most disturbing think in my mind is, there are a lot of poor 
Muslim country in the world. Is the world Muslim community doing 
anything to help these people. All the time I only see or hear 
non muslims organization giving generous aids (food, medicine, 
clothing and etc) to these people. Can someone please 
enlightened me with this issue.

I recall that I did invite Ben to hang out here and defend his 
views (which are fairly unpopular here).  And Zac? You wouldn't 
by any chance be Ben's roommate, now would you?  If you have 
views that you believe you can defend intelligently, please open 
a discussion here, where we may ALL contribute.  I doubt 
seriously that anyone here wants to message you.  And, what is 
AIM anyway?  Some new ICQ ripoff?

Whenever I watch an 
American movie, I wonder what is America trying to sell? For 
example, Americans in this forum are trying to tell the world 
that they are good people and trying to spread good cultural 
values ...why are there SO MANY American movies and TV programs 
showing American people think is morally correct showing them-
selves having illegal sex? When I say Americans are devils 
trying 
to spread mischiefs on earth ....SHOULD THEY BE ANGRY?

---------------------------------------------------------------

 This was from your first post tigger. Shame be upon you for
watching American movies and WWF. Now you, and I both know you 
been watching all that illegal sex every chance you get! Can
you smell what the rock is cookin?
 America is in Afghanistan for a clearly defined mission, when
its done it will be done. You really need not worry your formula
cluttered mind over it. We understand the danger in that
godforsaken country as well as the British do, who will have an
even rougher go of it as peacekeepers. Now if your theory on
the Afghans, as a ruthless, stab you in the back people is
correct, what will be the mental effect of the medium to heavy
bombing of the Taliban be on them? You say make them mad. I say
it will one hell of a respect gainer. That and the most important
fact they can now watch movies, just like you. And maybe have a
beard, or not. I wont go on, most know what the Afghans were
denied under Taliban/al-Qu'eda rule. 
 Tigger, always with the math! You keep count and keep us posted.

Fact Finder,
I don't claim to have all the facts.  But, from the perspective 
I see, the poor in Afghanistan and in Iraq seem to be used as 
pawns, not valued as citizens.  

In Iraq, there have been economic sanctions brought about by us 
because Saddam Hussein won't comply with the U.N. inspections to 
be sure that he isn't building weapons of mass destruction.  
He's managed to find loopholes in these sanctions to sell oil 
and hide the money to buy weaponry with, while allowing the poor 
to starve while telling them that they are starving because of 
our sanctions.  If he truly cared about them, he certainly has 
the resources to take care of them...but, he doesn't.  He builds 
his bunkers to hold his ammo dumps under schools and hospitals 
so that we would be forced to kill innocent civilians in order 
to attack his armed forces.

The Taliban did the same sorts of things in Afghanistan.  They 
hid weapons in a food storage building.  When we discovered this 
and destroyed the weapons (and the food) we were scolded for 
destroying food supplies for the poor...they neglected to 
mention the arms and ammo that was also destroyed.

I've heard that even educated Muslims who KNOW that the Koran 
prohibits many of the actions of the Taliban were afraid to 
speak out for fear.  Many have been killed for speaking.  And, 
their widows buried in mass graves alive.

The non-Muslims that you see handing out food and medicine do so 
because they believe that God wants them to tend to the needs of 
the poor.  They also teach the message of other 
religions...Christianity is probably the main one.  Hunger makes 
people listen.  

The only good news that I've heard so far is that the Pakistani 
government will be shutting down schools that teach the twisted 
violent message of the Taliban and other Fundamentalist Muslims.

Zac,
"All your talk about age, and the future, and college...those 
are sad excusses for a defense. Can't anyone reply to what he's 
saying, and not just who he is, it shouldn't fucking matter how 
old he is, or what he plans to do with his life, the fact is, 
you people don't have anything real to say, so you pick on his 
age...or wording."

It also just occurred to me that you probably don't know how 
many times, and from how many different angles every aspect of 
this has been covered in this forum.  Check the archives and you 
will probably be able to understand why we don't jump in to 
explain it all again to every new person that comes in.

If either of you comes in with something "real" to say, and 
a "real" desire to discuss it, you'll find plenty of people here 
who will converse with you intelligently.  If you come in with 
a "fuck-all" attitude...you'll reap what you sow.

Hi Justice U.S.A.,
I'm sorry I've put off my reply to your earlier post.  It sounds 
as though you are having a really rough day today.  Let me pour 
you a glass of Zinfandel, and I'll just sit here and listen 
until you feel better.

One sad thing about America's youth is that they've "killed" so 
many people in their video games that they don't get that death 
is real.  That's one advantage most of the kids here where I 
live have.  We take them hunting...they kill something...they 
understand death.  It's a whole different duck than images on a 
screen that they can erase and do over.  I imagine that Ben and 
Zac's posts have been hard on you being as close to the scene as 
you are.  You are still breathing the smell of death every day, 
while most of us have been able to move on (more or less).  Try 
to forgive them the foolishness of their youth and lack of life 
experience.  They'll understand someday.

In the meanwhile, know that you have friends here who care about 
you, and about what it is to be where you are.  If you need me, 
I'm here. Hugs!

Dear Mullah, 
I can't wait to hear how the video was.  Atlas Shrugged was a 
book I wish I'd read when I was 18 and thought I knew everything.
I'm sure you'll enjoy it.  I found while I was reading it that I 
could only read a page or two at a time, because each thing I 
read set of a new train of thought that HAD to be let run to 
it's conclusion.  I don't find many books that affect me as 
profoundly as that one did.

Nice to see you posting!

Ayn Rand movie.
I'll be back later.

May you be blessed a thousand blessings from above,
Mullah Enaud
 
Please visit our new state site:
www.Afghansas.com

"I admit, I'm elitest, it saves a lot of time.  It 
bores me to argue with the mass of you about the same issues 
over and over".
-------------------------------------------------------------
 You are a elitist in your mind, you have have not argued one
single issue even once here.
-------------------------------------------------------------

----------------------------------------------------------------

Zackoff, the coatail grabber:

  What the hell was witht that guy? I think, 
anyone who has such a strong opinion on what is right and wrong, 
doesn't need this bullshit. People here quoting their various 
religious texts...just propaganda

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Propaganda. Everything said or written could be considered
propaganda if it is a organized effort to influence. Such as 
you backing up whatever the Bent one has said, even if that is
nothing. You + Him = Propaganda
 JackieChan can you check my math on that one.


---------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------------------------
 Bent, really now. I was totally wrong when I said "an educated
dumbass". I stand corrected. I'll get the un in there next time.
 Since we are all elitists here and all, I just feel I should 
point out what you did to this word, "desturction".

Im sorry, the word destruction was mutilated by your buddy
Zackoff, you are still in the elitist club you Uneducated
dumbass. Zackoff you use the "F" word to much, you are out.
 Will be looking forward to reading your views, Bent, besides
what you expressed in your first post in the days to come.

Hey Ben, feel free to voice your opinion, but try to remember 
the golden rule when communicating. I hear the word 
hypocrisy a lot. Everyone thinks everyone else is a hypocrite. 
In reality, that is because we all are. People do exactly what 
they hate everyday. They say one thing and do another, all 
the while thinking that they are "the only one who really 
understands". I don't discount you for your age so much 
because I am young also (need a lot more experience - 
don't we all?). 

What I want is to live a life where I am free to choose what I 
believe. Honestly, I want the truth! I know most americans 
don't, but I do!! I don't flinch when I see dead babies, I may 
cry, but I do not turn my head! War certainly does suck...I 
don't understand how with all this power we couldn't get 
more aid to Afgans sooner and especially why we can't get 
all the aid we can to them now. I do not like the fact that we 
killed a bunch of Afghans, but I thought that maybe in the 
long run we would be able to help more of them. I still put 
much of the blame for their deaths on Al Qaeda ,but also 
think the US should accept responsibility for the innocent 
deaths. In actuality though this could have been much 
worse if we had gone the Clinton path and retaliated 
immediately with no real plan. I do not like politicians in 
general though because they lie to me and I have no control 
over it (unless I decided to run), however I'll take what I can 
get. Bush freaks me out, frankly. I think he looks insane 
when he keeps talking about all this evil, but I think he 
actually might be more real than most other politicians (not 
everyone can feign a sane look all the time). Anhow, I am 
very interested in freedom. I like the freedoms I have and I 
think it would be great if all people could have the freedom I 
do. 

Back to the topic at hand though, what do you think is a 
solution to this situation? I went back to read your original 
post and you mentioned Iraq. Do you remember anything 
about Saddam Hussein? good greif! Blame America for all 
the starving children - that is getting really really old. You 
could skip the government and go right to the source of "evil" 
that is corporate America. Plenty of greed to go around. Just 
know that greed is not indigenous to the United States of 
America, nor was it born here. 

When you want to make friends with a stranger, don't you 
first do it cautiously, but generously? America gives 
generously out of a vested interest for itself, but one cannot 
take away the fact that we give of ourselves just because 
most of it is done with selfish ends. Are other countries not 
serving their best interests? This is the way the world works; 
you, as an educated person, should know this. People as a 
whole are fond of asking "what's in it for me?" This is 
something I wish would not be the motivating factor for 
everything, but I will not be so naive as to think that all 
people will suddenly start thinking of their neighbor first. I 
am curious to know if you have anything but attacks for the 
people of this board. I am very familiar with elitists and 
"intellectuals" because sometimes I got caught in their 
circular arguments as a Christian in high school. It usually 
didn't get anywhere so I resigned to only arguing when I was 
really bored or felt the other party needed to feel better about 
themselves. However, I don't really want to argue my faith to 
someone who has already scorned it - I am simply 
interested in those facts which pertain to this page. 

I don't know if I have offered any solutions to the problem at 
hand, but that is probably because I do not claim to have any 
solutions. I am curious to see what your opinion of the issue 
is - not of the people giving their opinions. Thank you very 
much.

You'll be doin' alright with your Christmas of white...But I'll 
have a...

Enough of these shenanegans! Time for bed!

God bless us - Every one!

Hi Mullah, I was just writing to see where you are based. Are 
you in Kabul? I am curious to know some first hand 
information that does not come from corporate sponsored 
news. I hope all is well in Afghansas (if you are an Afgan, 
your sense of humor is remarkably American). We're not in 
Afghansas anymore toto! heehee. God bless you too! Good 
night.

"""A fuckin 15,000-pound daisy cutter?I "think"there might be 
a"few"dead.If they aint dead,they're deaf."""

Rumsfeld, "Blah Blah Blah ....."

Military Dude, " ... and I might add the weapon achieved its 
objective ...."

Reporter, " and what was that objective?"

Military Dude, " many dead Al-Quaeda "

Another reporter, " and what are your forces on the ground 
seeing in the area...[where the Daisy Cutter was dropped]?"

Military Dude, "..... many Dead Al-Quaeda" 

Banga! :-)

Bummer man ... no dual ACD for the PC  - even with the good Dr. 
Bott contraptions, pretty freakin cool nonetheless.

Cant make the switch to MAC bud  - sorry.

"Anyway, ahh yes, EagleEye, you pathetic little shit, you're 
are possibly one of the most asanine,(thanks again, whoever that 
was)hypocrital pieces of shit that I have ever had the 
misfortune to come across.  You have the balls to call me 
arrogant when you assume you know enough about me to be able to 
judge me."

 ... the eagle is in utter amazement of the profound nature of 
the above commentary.  So this is what genious reads like? Oh 
my ... staggering.

Apparently the SAT is now scored by how well one can surround a 
mindless thought with a shitload of hyperbolic window dressing.  
You sir are to be congratulated .... touche'

"little shit" --  hehehehehehe that was cute!

Ben ... "You've Got Mail"

"I guess I'm just afraid that invoking Article 5, especially 
after he had rejected treaties that had been agreed upon, might 
not have been a politically smart move.  What do you think?"

Bush didnt Invoke Article 5 single handedly - you give the guy 
too much power - even tho' no one could really stop us for a 
while mind you ....... Which of the rejected treaties is it that 
concerns you?  Does anybody think Bush or USA can make a smart 
move?

"In one place, fires still smoked where the Arab fighters had 
made their morning tea before being overrun by the Mujahidin.The 
trees were burnt and shrivelled, their branches, like arms, 
reaching towards the sky. On remnants of a CBU87 cluster bomb, 
an American soldier had written before dropping his weapon:  For 
those whose dreams were taken, Here are a few nightmares. This 
is gonna shine like a diamond in a goat s ass. 

Nothing quite like American Literature eh Ben?

 

I see now that there are some questions as to whether or not 
this guy is legit or not; (according to Missin's favorite 
paper, 'The Guardian', anyway). One of the Aussie papers says it 
took the guy 17 months to get in 20 hrs. of flying time.

www.smh.com.au/news/0112/10/world/world4.html+afroz&hl=en

Mullah, what's your take on this guy?

Thanks, U.K. I won't forget...I wouldn't have been able to do it 
without all of you...

Hey, Ben!

Just where do you get those 'global' scores?  We just got the 
results for my son's SAT (better than 99% of the nation) and 
they didn't have any global scores on them...how do I find out 
those results?

And how is it that you got to take your SAT in the 7th grade?  
You one of those ing nues?  Most students don't take them until 
they're a Junior or Senior...you must be in those real advanced 
placement classes...

(to the rest of you, didn't that last post from Ben sound an 
awfully lot like our old friend 'Voices'?)

ingenues...(the e disappeared, somehow...it even had that accent 
over it!)

http://www.dailytelegraph.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5936,33
93794%255E701,00.html

Bin Laden's second wife
By ANNA COCK
11dec01

EVEN the world's most wanted man keeps happy snaps to remember 
his family by.

Pictures of a doe-eyed beauty   believed to be Osama bin Laden's 
second wife   and the pair's four children have been discovered 
in a Kabul flat.
The family portraits were left behind when the bin Ladens 
hurriedly abandoned their ground-floor apartment in the New City 
district of Kabul on November 12.

They show the 44-year-old terrorist's innocent-looking wife   
who looks to be half her husband's age   and four immaculately 
groomed children.

There are no toothy grins for the camera, although bin Laden's 
young son appears to have a cheerful demeanour despite the 
influence of his evil father.

The bin Ladens' landlord, Said Safda Ashamy, told the London Sun 
that the woman and her children received periodic visits from 
the man accused of masterminding the September 11 terrorist 
attacks on the US. 

"They were very quiet and did not go out much," Mr Ashamy said 
of the family. 

"The children used to play in the garden, they also kept goats.

"Bin Laden usually arrived at night and slipped away the next 
day. Sometimes he stayed a few days." 

But on November 12, they all packed up and fled in a convoy of 
vehicles, Mr Ashamy said.

The wife pictured in the photograph which was left behind is 
believed to be bin Laden's second.

He is married to several other women and has fathered 42 
children. Little is known about the women in bin Laden's life   
but the fact that pictures exist of at least one of his wives   
goes against the teachings of the then-ruling Taliban.

Photography of all living things was banned by the Taliban, but 
for bin Laden there were exemptions.

He was allowed to videotape the wedding of one of his sons, 
Mohammed, in January this year and the event was later broadcast 
across the Middle East on Qatari satellite channel Al-Jazeera.

Since the events of September 11, just two members of bin 
Laden's family have commented publicly about his activities.

An 18-year-old son, Abdullah, was quoted in October as saying 
his father was hiding in a cave and would never be caught.

He said bin Laden disappeared in a convoy of 60 trucks filled 
with satellite equipment.


 
  2001 Mirror Australian Telegraph Publications 

 
 

I hope his 18 year old son is right. I do not what the swine 
captured; I want him DEAD.

Good Morning, Everyman!
What is "The Guardian"?  I must have got lost somewhere.

Thanks for info, I really mean, is there any organization that 
belong to muslim group, or charity organization run by muslim 
group that is supporting not only the Afghan but also Indonesia, 
chechen and other poor muslim countries. These countries are not 
under any sanction. Where are the muslim organization to help 
these people. Example, are group like Red Cross and Salvation 
Army. A lot of these volunteer have died when things gone bad in 
the countries they were helping.

Hey Eagle-Eye,
Actually, I thought that the decision to invoke Article 5 WAS 
done by one person, but, maybe you're right.

My concern is that it's the first time in 42 years of existence 
that it's ever been invoked.  And, from what E.S.D. posted, it 
sounded to me as though the other countries involved might not 
be wholeheartedly in support.  I'm wondering why that might be.  
The only thing I could think of was that Bush DID reject 
something like four different treaties or agreements in the 
first 6 months of office that our country had backed initially.

I can't speak for what others think of Bush and our country, 
only my own opinion.  As I've stated before, we may not ALWAYS 
do exactly the right thing, but we do try to.  Bush has, in my 
opinion, made his share of mistakes...and he told us during his 
campaign that he was going to make some of them.  A lot of 
people chose to vote for him anyway.  I have no desire to go 
into all that in this forum now though.  The fact is...he is 
president, and I support that...and I support what he's done so 
far in going after the Taliban, bin Laden, and al-Quaeda.  I 
think he's done his best.  I think it's good to think ahead 
though, in reference to what may come.

Dear Fact Finder,
I'm sorry, I truly don't know the answer to your question.  I 
personally haven't had a lot of contact with the Muslim 
communities here.  I have large gaps in my knowledge of the 
Muslim faith...I don't know if they are commanded by Allah to do 
this type of work.  I've never heard of any organizations that 
do that, but that I've never heard of them means nothing.

I do know that some Islamist groups here have gone into the 
ghettos and innercities of America to try to convert young men 
from their lives of drugs and gangs to the followings of Islam.  
And, they have had some success.  Unfortunately, as with the 
Taliban, they are primarily the Fundamentalist groups that don't 
themselves follow the true Muslim faith.  Why is it that only 
the Fundamentalist Muslims seem to be reaching out to the poor, 
and the poor in spirit?  Can you help me understand that?

Walter,
I wanted to address your post of yesterday.

"If you will think about it,the US,and its people couldn't be 
bothered about Afganistan children or the women's rights 
there,and the information about what's been going on there has 
been available for YEARS.But suddenly we CARE.How very big of us 
to notice once it was time to bomb them."

I've heard a lot of this type of sentiment expressed lately, and 
it bothers me.  For a couple of reasons.  First one 
being...you're right.  Except for one part.  I DIDIN'T know.  
And, I don't even know WHY I didn't know.  There is bloodshed 
and oppression all over the world that I have no knowledge of 
until it becomes a big deal here.  Why is that?

But, on the other hand, I also think that if I personally KNEW 
of every single act of oppression, terrorism, slaughter, famine, 
disease, etc etc etc...of every person in the world who was not 
allowed to live freely as I do...who must live in fear for their 
very lives...it would make me crazy.  I think that we do 
intercede sometimes.  I don't know who makes the call on which 
problem we try to address today, but, I believe they have their 
reasons for the ones they get us involved in, and the ones they 
don't.  Walter, think of how many crazies we have right here on 
our own soil.  7 people were killed by a disgruntled employee in 
Indiana last week.  I heard not ONE word of sympathy for those 
people and their families.  Why?  Only 7 people?  The problem is 
too small to address?  The thought of trying to monitor and 
control EVERY crazy in the world makes my head spin.

I do want to give credit to the churches who send missionaries 
to work in countries with problems that most of us don't even 
hear about.  Some Americans DO know...and take action to try to 
help.  Most of us never even hear about the problems.  And, 
sometimes...I feel as though I hear about all I can handle 
without being swamped with depression for all the ones we can't 
help today.

I'm just an average American, Walter.  Do you really think I 
should know about EVERY atrocity in the world?  I'm asking you 
honestly...no sarcasm intended.
 

>>>>>>>>
In any case, yes, I am intelligent, scored in the top 35% of the 
world on my SATs which I was fortunate enough to take in 7th 
grade.
>>>>>>>>

I don't know about any other school districts, but I do know that 
here it is common practice for students to take the SAT in the 
7th or 8th grade.  This shows the parents/school advisors any 
weak spots in the student's knowledge base.  They can then create 
a course load to try to round out said student's education.  
SOMETIMES the student takes the test because of absolute academic 
ability but most times it is just a litmus test.  

Ben,

That you scored in the top 35 percentile is good but don't go 
beating your chest too much because of your age when you took the 
test.  All that it takes is good grades, a school faculty sponsor 
and a check from Mom and Dad.

Some good advice from someone who has been all the way around the 
block (quite a few times, I might add.)  Intelligence will only 
get you so far.  It will open many educational opportunities for 
you BUT experience, patience and self-control is what REAL 
success is built upon.

That is not mindless drivel from any brainwashed culture-whore 
but true and good advice from me to you.

Zac,  When/If Ben posts something real worth commenting on, we 
have/will.  As for us needing to stand up and pay attention 
because he has strong opinions...SO WHAT... we all do.  That is 
why we are here.

Good Morning, Smiley!
Well said, my friend!

I wasn't saying that you,as an individual,should know about,and 
feel responsible for every inhumane act that goes on in the 
world.What I AM saying,because it pisses me off really bad,is 
that we are NOT there on a mission for God,we are not there as 
humanitarians,we are there to fight a war.No matter what Bush(or 
his wife)says,we are bombing their country,we are NOT making 
their lives better,we are destroying farmland and buildings that 
they cannot replace when this is all over.Those are things that 
war does.Soon,the Northern Alliance will begin fighting amongst 
themselves(as they have done time and again),and that country 
will rise again to become the shithole that it was before.But the 
U.S.has known for many years what has been going on there.And no 
one lifted a finger to stop it.I first heard the name Osama bin 
Laden 21 years ago when the CIA was funding him and his followers 
when they were fighting Russia.The CIA helped to build some of 
the caves.About the same time that we were supplying Saddam with 
weapons to fight Iran.In hindsight,we,as a country should maybe 
learn to pick our friends a little better.
 When Bush makes his statements about the"Evil Ones",it heavily 
implies that we are the"Good Ones".I don't believe that we are.We 
are just ourselves,and our country has been attacked,and 
something had to be done about it.You can check out murder and 
other crime statistics to find out how wonderful we are.If we are 
going to call ourselves great,and good,we need to take care of 
some contradictions in our actions as humans:all of us,myself 
included.
 Talking about how much we care about other people,and wishing 
that they had enough to eat,and a place to live,only does one 
thing:it features the speaker as a caring human being.Wonderful 
symbolism.But symbolism does not feed even one person,anywhere.As 
I've said here before,we as a nation,change the channel when a 
starving child shows up on TV,so that we don't miss"Survivor".We 
were already watching the real show.I've done it,and I am afraid 
of the day when I can't block it out anymore,and may have to go 
to one of these places myself to help,and leave my life in 
Pillowland(LOL) behind.
 I don't believe that we are fighting for freedom everywhere,and 
making the world a safer place.But I do believe we are fighting 
for America,and that's enough.

"But I do believe we are fighting for America,and that's enough."

Now Im understanding .... but hey, I dont ever recall waving the 
flag under the guise of what humanitarian effort we had going on 
here.

I did however "remind" people that there are several very 
large "positive" efforts USA endeavors on each and every day to 
help other world citizens - we do do more than war and bomb 
[though we're obviously better at some things than others]

We're not interested in obliterating the Taliban because of 
their Human Rights records ... people seem to be confusing 
that ... we're kicking their dumb asses because they provided 
safe harbour to bin Lucifer.

Walter,
You make some very good points.  I hope you'll indulge me 
further and allow me to ask some more questions, and maybe make 
a point or two of my own.

"What I AM saying,because it pisses me off really bad,is 
that we are NOT there on a mission for God,we are not there as 
humanitarians,we are there to fight a war.No matter what Bush(or 
his wife)says,we are bombing their country,we are NOT making 
their lives better,we are destroying farmland and buildings that 
they cannot replace when this is all over."

I agree that our troops are not there for any mission for God.  
Our troops are there because we were attacked...as you said.  
However, do you honestly believe that the people who are 
suddenly free enough to watch movies, buy goods in shops, get 
haircuts, etc are not better off than they were a month or two 
ago?  Maybe I just look too hard to try to see good in 
everything, but were I a woman living there, I would consider 
myself better off if I no longer had to worry about being beaten 
to death should my burkah fall off in the street.  We had 
American missionaries there before this war to aid the sick and 
the hungry. I can't help but feel that our troops have made this 
a safer place for those missionaries to return to in order to 
continue their work.

However...a lot does depend on whatever government is in power 
next...as you pointed out.
"Soon,the Northern Alliance will begin fighting amongst 
themselves(as they have done time and again),and that country 
will rise again to become the shithole that it was before."

Do you know of anything we can do about that other than have the 
peacekeeping troops there as is planned?  The reality to me, is 
that we NEEDED the Northern Alliance to go after bin Laden.  
Just as we NEEDED bin Laden to help Afghanistan repel the 
Soviets.  Just as we NEEDED Iraq's help with Iran during the 
rule of Khomeini.  Yes, it does seem that everytime we NEED 
someone, and help someone, we get bitten in the ass for it.  
But, what are the alternatives?  Do you think that our 
involvement in any of the above was a bad move?  Didn't we HAVE 
to be there to protect the interest of either our own country or 
our allies?  I think there is just a whole lot of gray area here.

"When Bush makes his statements about the"Evil Ones",it heavily 
implies that we are the"Good Ones".I don't believe that we are."

I too wish he wouldn't make statements like that...I think it's 
political posturing in an effort to get Christian votes 
(especially since he made a bunch of them mad by approving the 
stem-cell deal).  But, as a whole...I think we are good.  
Certainly, not every one of us is.  We have our fair share of 
crazies, and misguided, and purely evil people in this country.  
There's no doubt of that.  But, when the country makes a move as 
a whole...I truly believe that we BELIEVE we are doing the RIGHT 
thing...the thing that is best for all concerned.  Of course, 
any move we make will have some people who don't agree...that's 
America.  In my country, I have the RIGHT to be WRONG.

I believe that most people in this country DO care.  And, maybe 
they can't make themselves sit through yet another "hungry 
child" infomercial...most of us have seen them 50,000 times or 
so already.  I think that people show that they care in the only 
ways most of them can...by sending money to charities and 
churches who will send people there to work on the problems.  We 
have stuff here that needs dollars and people too, and so what 
we send gets divided.  What REALLY pisses ME off is the 
charities like the Red Cross who use 70-80% of the money WE give 
them to help with these things for ADMINISTRATION costs.  Once 
you start looking at how much of the money you send gets lost in 
the shuffle...it makes you want to stop contributing to those 
types of charities.  One bad one gives them all a bad name.  I'd 
like to see a new law on the books that limits administration 
costs to no more than 20%...or maybe 10% would be even better!  
And, I think a lot of churches are just as bad...funneling the 
lion's share of contributions into building bigger, badder 
buildings to attract more money.  I agree there is much wrong 
with this country in the way that it deals with issues that need 
help...both here and elsewhere.  But, until someone gets a 
lawmaker's ear through a lobby group...nothing is going to 
change.

I think anytime we fight for freedom anywhere, we are fighting 
for America.  I think this current conflict proves that.  We 
should have gone after this group long before now, but we 
didn't.  We HAVE gone after other groups though...and maybe 
never even heard what we did because it was a covert operation.  
And, who knows, we may have taken care of a problem 15 years ago 
that would have culminated in an even larger attack if left 
unchecked.

I don't have all the answers, Walter.  I don't think anyone 
does.  It's just not all black and white...that's all I know.

I know that you were addressing Missin' in your previous post but 
there are some points that need to be made concerning it.

>>>>>>>
But the U.S.has known for many years what has been going on 
there.And no one lifted a finger to stop it.
<<<<<<<

As unpopular as it is to believe, the US does not always feel the 
need to interfere with another country's internal affairs.  We 
are really damned if we do and damned if we don't.  On the one 
hand people scream "Why are we sticking our noses in other 
countries' business?", then when we don't do anything we get 
blasted for not caring for others?!!?  So, which is it to be???

>>>>>>>>
When Bush makes his statements about the"Evil Ones",it heavily 
implies that we are the"Good Ones"
<<<<<<<<

There is a difference between evil and bad (or NOT good.)  Just 
because someone is not evil it does not mean they are good.  When 
my children were small they misbehaved (and got punished) but 
that did not mean they were evil.  Evil has an underlying intent 
on destruction and hurt.  To not be evil DOES NOT imply to be 
good!

>>>>>>>>
Talking about how much we care about other people,and wishing 
that they had enough to eat,and a place to live,only does one 
thing:it features the speaker as a caring human being.Wonderful 
symbolism.But symbolism does not feed even one person,anywhere
<<<<<<<<

It is true that talk is cheap but I also see much action in the 
circles I run with.  I personally ran a food pantry for 
needy people for 6 years.  A friend of mine and her sister take 
street people in, help them get cleaned up, get a job and 
overcome their difficult situations.   NEITHER of us get paid 
for the work we do.  We have to fight and scrape and sacrifice 
our own comfort to bring help to these people.  We are not funded 
for this work.  Many times we do not even get 'Thanks.'  Please 
do not put all Americans into the "me" mentality.  Many Americans 
have a very big heart and are willing to sacrifice to help 
others.

NBC, MSNBC AND NEWS SERVICES 
Dec. 12    The American Taliban fighter being held by Marines in 
Afghanistan has told U.S. intelligence officials that the al-
Qaida extremist network plans to launch a biological attack 
against the United States within days, The Washington Times 
reported Wednesday, citing U.S. intelligence officials. 
JOHN WALKER, 20, of Fairfax, Calif., who was captured with other 
Taliban fighters near Mazar-e-Sharif this month, told 
intelligence debriefers at a Marine base near Kandahar where he 
is being held that  Phase II  of al-Qaida s war on the United 
States would occur at the end of the Muslim holy month of 
Ramadan, the report said. 
Ramadan ends Sunday. 
The third phase of al-Qaida s war would lead to destruction of 
the entire United States, he told interrogators, the newspaper 
said. 

Talking about how much we care about other people,and wishing 
                 that they had enough to eat,and a place to 
live,only does one 
                thing:it features the speaker as a caring human 
being.Wonderful 
                 symbolism.But symbolism does not feed even one 
person,anywhere
                                            <<<<<<<<

                It is true that talk is cheap but I also see much 
action in the 
                    circles I run with.  I personally ran a food 
pantry for 
                needy people for 6 years. --------
What you just said here is exactly what I'm talking about.I must 
not be saying things correctly.I refer to this part of the same 
post:I am afraid 
                of the day when I can't block it out anymore,and 
may have to go 
                   to one of these places myself to help,and 
leave my life in 
                                     Pillowland(LOL) behind.
Do you get my meaning?If you really care about something,take 
action,and do something!If you care about the homeless and 
unfortunate,your heart and soul will make you do something to 
help,unless you can block it out.I'm talking about America as a 
whole,and you know as well as I do that if we all took a part,and 
decided to do something about our problems here,we would have 
something that would amaze everyone,including 
ourselves.Utopia?Probably not,but much closer.
 Your statement:There is a difference between evil and bad (or 
NOT good.)  Just 
               because someone is not evil it does not mean they 
are good.---------I agree.What I'm talking about is the WAY it 
has been implied.Reread Bush's statements if you will,and you 
might see what I mean.You might not agree.That's OK.
 

What do you suggest that we do about all the poor here, the 
crazies here, the misguided (read gangbangers) here...as a 
whole, Walter?  I'm open to ideas...especially those that would 
lead us closer to a Utopian state.  Right now, the only option I 
seem to have to find anything resembling Utopia is to head for 
the woods (as I do every weekend...and will do soon for good) 
and ignore the rest of the world.  

Welfare was supposed to help the poor, wasn't it?  Didn't it 
instead create more poor.  Here in Arkansas, Clinton (in his 
days as Governor) reduced the welfare roles by over half by 
limiting the number of years you could ride on welfare.  He did 
this because we had 4th and 5th generation welfare families who 
raised their young daughters with the goal of getting pregnant 
as soon as they possibly could do so in order to get a check.

Social security was supposed to help people who weren't good at 
saving money retire...guess who's in line at the local DHS 
office when their gas bill goes up due to an ice storm? I'm 
actually in support of Bush's plan (not his own, it's been 
around for decades) to allow some of what we put into Social 
Security to be put into personal retirement accounts.  However, 
when you look at the nuts and bolts of the plan...it doesn't 
work any better than what we have now.

The problem with any type of government or large charity social 
program is that there is way too much wasted on administration.  
Paul Harvey spoke in my hometown about 15 years ago.  At that 
time, he said that you could give every man, woman, and child 
who live below the poverty level in this country $14,000 a year, 
and we'd save TRILLIONS each year.  At the time, that's about 
what I was making working full time as an office manager.  To 
say I was pissed off is to put it mildly.

Again, I don't have all the answers.  I'm desperately searching 
for some.

However, do you honestly believe that the people who are 
                 suddenly free enough to watch movies, buy goods 
in shops, get 
                 haircuts, etc are not better off than they were 
a month or two 
                     ago?  Maybe I just look too hard to try to 
see good in 
                 everything, but were I a woman living there, I 
would consider 
                myself better off if I no longer had to worry 
about being beaten 
                   to death should my burkah fall off in the 
street.

 Yes,going to a movie,or getting a haircut would be nice for 
them,but do you think their monetary system is holding up very 
well?I'm free to go and see a movie,but not if I don't have any 
money.And if I had to choose between being afraid,or having my 
children killed by bombs,or starvation,its easy to guess what I'd 
choose.And the reality of it for them sucks.And like I said to 
Smiley,I must be saying things incorrectly,because I'm not 
getting my point across.I'm not saying I know how we should have 
done things.I'm saying that we are not saving Afghanistan,and 
that we should stop saying we are.Believe what you want.New York 
is a much safer place to live now also.The crime rate is way 
down,and people are nicer to each other than they have been in 
years.I'm sure they'd give it all up in a minute to have those 
people back.

:I believe that most people in this country DO care.  And, maybe 
                   they can't make themselves sit through yet 
another "hungry 
                 child" infomercial...most of us have seen them 
50,000 times or 
                so already.------------------
 All I can say about that is that I don't believe most people 
WATCH them at all,I think they change the channel,so they don't 
become offended.And I don't believe most people care,they SAY 
they do,but I think that most are actually indifferent.I'm basing 
this on conversations I've had with people all of my life.From 
millionaires to bums.If you've(I'm not being a smart ass)met 
better people with more humane ideas,I'm glad,and also jealous,I 
would have liked to have met more of them myself.

And by the way:I lived very close to Garfield,Arkansas for 3 
months.A real party.A state trooper told me:"We don't like you 
Mexicans down here"(I'm not Mexican,but had a summer tan,but I 
wasn't going to argue the point).It was a lot of fun though.

I don't know where Garfield is.  I'll take your word for the 
story of the bigoted trooper though.  We definitely have our 
share of rednecks here.  But, we also have a maybe 
proportionately large population of people who DO care about 
others.  Or maybe it's just that I choose MY friends with care.  
I don't know where you live.  I know that some parts of the 
country are friendlier than others, but I visited NYC twice 
before the attacks, and I found people there friendly too.  
Maybe I'm just lucky enough to have some quality in my demeanor 
that attracts people like that.  I can't explain the difference 
in our views.  I gather that you are probably close to my age, 
so I can't toss it off as being the "youth of today" (which 
generally means, the youth that haven't yet figured out that 
they don't know everything).  I'm 44.  

I just heard on the radio that Bush signed an Act for 
Afghanistan Women and Children this morning.  I haven't yet 
found an article on the Act...but, I understand it to be an 
ongoing pledge of support from America to the people of 
Afghanistan.  Great timing, eh?

Walter,
In re-reading my above post...I think I should clarify that 
comment about the "youth of today".  I meant that maybe that was 
who you come into contact with the most.  NOT, that I would 
consider you one who believes they know everything.  Sorry it 
wasn't clear.

I just got a Breaking News email from MSNBC. All four of the 
crew members of the B-1 Bomber that crashed in the Indian Sea 
this morning have been RESCUED! Yayyyyyyyyyyyyyyy!

Things that could be done to help bring it closer:
1.Education,education,education!
2.A flat tax.Paid when purchasing anything besides food 
and housing.Billions of dollars of uncollected income from 
illegal activity.Why should you or I pay more taxes than anyone 
else?
3.Welfare:every month,they turn in a report on a book that 
they've read.Can't read?We'll teach you(teaching people to read 
programs are availible in many states already,they are rarely 
used).If they won't read the book,they don't get the check.Three 
strikes and the children go to a better place.If they won't even 
read a book to make sure their children have food,and a decent 
place to live,we can assume that they don't care much about them 
at all.
4.Jail and Prison:A sentence means what it says:5 years means 5 
years.Good behaviour?If you were capable of conducting yourself 
correctly,you wouldn't be there in the first place.
 Work crews would perform public services.Cleaning parks,rest 
areas,etc.Give the rest of society a reason to want you back in 
it.No work-no food,just like in real life.
5.A national draft.Not only military duty,they could pick and 
choose between various choices;but some kind of public duty.Many 
will benefit from the experience of doing something important,and 
will begin to understand who they are,and understand that they 
are needed(very important).

I understand better now the point you were trying to make.  I 
don't fully agree, but as you said "That's OK."  

The disparity in our views, I am sure, comes from a difference in 
lifestyle and social contact.  If you have not gathered I am a 
Christian so most of my social interaction is with other 
Christians.  Our church if very missionary and community minded.  
We believe in aiding not only those overseas but put a lot of 
effort into helping those in our community.  I must emphasize, we 
get no compensation, no recognition.  As a matter of fact many 
times our help is repaid with the proverbial 'slap in the face.'  

As for the people in Afghanastan, I believe in the long run they 
will be better off.  Do you remember the choice the Pilgrims made 
to face this bold, new world?  They sacrificed EVERYTHING, homes, 
comfort, wealth and even families because they believed that when 
all was said and done life would be better.  A driving factor in 
this, I might add, was to be able to worship God freely.  

Freedom comes with a BIG price tag.  They currency is most often 
human lives.

I don't mean this post in an antagonistic way, so if it sounds 
that way I am truly sorry.  I am just trying to help you 
understand where I come from when responding to anyone's post.

Or maybe it's just that I choose MY friends with care.  
                  I don't know where you live.  I know that some 
parts of the 
                  country are friendlier than others, but I 
visited NYC twice 
                  before the attacks, and I found people there 
friendly too.  
                Maybe I'm just lucky enough to have some quality 
in my demeanor 
                that attracts people like that.-----------
Now if you look at this,it sure looks like a personal attack.I 
also choose my friends with care.I have friends I've known since 
childhood,and an ex-wife that I love,and I'm sure that she feels 
the same way about me.But I didn't refer to only my friends in my 
post.I said people I've had conversations with all my life.And 
that number is in the thousands.I have met decent people who do 
care,but most have make it clear that they don't.
 A couple of days before the attack,I was in a shop when a poorly 
dressed man came in and started looking around.A woman in the 
shop said"Make him leave,I can smell him from here!",very 
loudly,and then began to talk to her friend about her church 
activities.I went up to her and asked if it was spitting on the 
poor,or was it kicking old people this week?Not exactly a good 
advertisment for Christianity was she?

I agree with almost every single thing you said, Walter.  Now 
the question is, how do we get these things to happen?  And, I'd 
like to add a little too.
1. Education-Why do we allow kids to drop out of school at 16?  
And, even younger if their parent's agree.(as in pregnant teens, 
as those on welfare might if it means a bigger check at their 
house) How can we make education mandatory? No driver's licenses 
without passing grades?  What about education for people who are 
too ignorant to raise children to know that they have 
options...such as the majority of welfare recipients?  

2. I definitely agree with the flat tax.  This country's 
socialist programs have ridden on the backs of people who 
actually work and produce for far too long.  Ask any truckdriver 
how hard it is for them to make a living these days.  That's 
what had me so buffaloed about Bush's idea to allow Mexican 
truckdrivers to come in freely and run our highways when it's 
already so hard for trucking companies in the U.S. to keep their 
profits up because of all the rules and taxes.  Taxing illegal 
activity?  The way I read your post, you pay tax on anything 
except food and housing, right?  Like a super sales tax?  One 
question...Here we are already paying nearly 8% sales tax. that 
goes to various city, county, and state coffers.  Are you saying 
that the flat sales type tax should be over and above that?  If 
so, how much?  And, what about people who are good at saving?  
If they saved their money, they would avoid paying tax on it?  
Or, did you mean a flat tax on income?
3. I do like that idea about having to read a book a month. What 
about requiring parenting classes as well?  How could we get 
such a program instituted...and more importantly how much would 
it cost?  I work with DHS offices, and they spend huge amounts 
of their resources(our tax dollars) now providing for crazy 
things like translators for the non-English speaking applicants, 
or the deaf applicants.  Every minority...no matter how small 
has to be treated in a special kid-gloves manner by the agencies.
Sidenote-My one visit as an applicant was when I, just after the 
birth of my daughter, could no longer afford to live in my home, 
and sought assistance with subsidized rent.  I made $5 per hour 
at the time...and paid $40 per week in daycare.  I was told that 
I made $700 per year too much money to receive help...but if I'd 
just have another baby, they could fix me right up!  See why I 
think these socialist programs are such bullshit?
4 & 5-I'm with ya all the way!

Hi Missin'--maybe I got mixed up thinking it was one of your 
posts; (might have been allati2d) 'The Guardian' is one of 
those 'tabloid' papers in Britain. 

Walter,
I apologize if that sounded like a personal attack to you.  I 
didn't mean it that way.  Let me see if I can explain it better.

First point, some parts of the country ARE friendlier than 
others, yes?  And, more polite?  I feel as though I've been 
lucky to grow up here where life is on a slower pace...people 
don't get as stressed out as they do in bigger cities for the 
most part.  This allows people to walk around NOT expecting to 
have people treat them rudely.  I think what you were saying 
about New York before the attack is probably true.  People there 
are/were subjected to rudeness much more often than I've ever 
been.  People who act that way down here don't get much in the 
way of sympathy or understanding...they just get labeled a jerk 
and left alone.  When you grow up in a place where (most)people 
are kind and polite, then you walk around with a much more open 
demeanor.  People in NYC walk around with their eyes on the 
ground a lot, it seems.  I noticed a few, I've heard a lot of 
people say that they do.  I on the other hand, walked across 
Central Park three times the last Sunday I was there and much of 
the time I was watching the people around me.  I met many eyes, 
and shared many smiles, and some words with many strangers.  I 
got the feeling that even though MY behaviour was perhaps 
considered odd there, it wasn't unwelcome.  

I guess my real question was based on the fact that you seem to 
have a fairly low opinion of the average American, and I don't.  
I have to believe that the only difference between us is the 
types of people that we normally encounter.  

The part about choosing MY friends wisely, was really in 
reference to what you said about us as a country not choosing 
our friends wisely...not about you personally.  Like Smiley, I 
tend to hang out with people who are spiritual, even if not 
strictly religious.  I know very few people who would ever admit 
that they don't care about others...it's just not done down 
here...it's considered rude.

Hey Everyman,
I think I made a reference to U.K. Vices reading tabloids 
once...maybe that was how it stuck in your mind?  No problem. 
Thanks for the reply! :-)

Sorry, I think I'm ready for my nap now.  This post was from Me 
to You...not the other way around! LOL

From: Walter 
To: Missin' 
Subject: Apologies 
Date: Wed Dec 12 15:50:08 2001 
Message:

No, Walter, she definitely wasn't what I would consider a good 
role model for Christians.  I have a boss who's kind of like 
that too.  Unfortunately, I think there are a lot like her.  I 
know at times I've said things that I was truly sorry enough for 
that I needed to say a prayer of confession and repentance 
myself.  This seems to be just one more example of why it's so 
important to NOT lump people all into groups.  Each of us is 
human, each of us has gifts and talents, each of us has flaws.  
Each of us who believes in God is responsible for his or her own 
relationship with God.

I think the media plays a part in reporting so much "bad news" 
that we end up with a view of the big, bad, ugly world out 
there.  The first time my son & I took a cross-country trip by 
car, I found that as a whole, people are friendly, caring, and 
that the country isn't nearly as terrible as it is portrayed.  
MOST people are fairly considerate.

I've often thought that we need to have some "Good News" papers 
to let people know about the positive things in life...there ARE 
many...

Walter,
I am truly sorry that someone who claims to represent the church 
would be acting in such a manner.  I personally would have 
pulled her aside and told her exactly how her behavior hurt God's 
people.  People like that just jerk my chain.  I have to 
remember, however, that Christ died for the hypocrite as much as 
any other sinner, myself included.  I have certainly done my 
share of damage to the witness of Christ.

Like our preacher says at times "The church would be great if it 
wasn't filled with people!"  We all in the church recognize that 
there are definitely problems but we also realize that if people 
were able to be perfect there would have been no need for Christ 
to die on the cross.

"To laugh often and love much; to win the respect of intelligent 
persons
and the affection of children, to earn the approbation of honest
critics; to appreciate beauty; to give of one's self, to leave 
the world
a bit better, whether by a healthy child, a garden patch or a 
redeemed
social condition; to have played and laughed with enthusiasm and 
sung
with exultation; to know even one life has breathed easier 
because you
have lived -- that is to have succeeded."
      -- Ralph Waldo Emerson

Most of the advocates of the flat tax have declared that 25% 
would be more than enough to pay for everything,with some left 
over.Taxing income would probably be better,but it has been shown 
that on purchases,it would save millions on paperwork alone.Most 
of us are paying between 28/40 % already,so taxes would be 
reduced for most.If I had to choose,I would probably go for the 
25% income tax.Too many problems with sorting out interest for 
credit card purchases and stuff.
 Number 3.stuff:The programs to help these people get back on 
their feet,or to better themselves are already in place.But no 
one makes anyone do these things.


To everyone:You have probably noticed that I am NOT a 
Christian.I believe there is a God.I believe in heaven and 
hell.But I also have seen that some people that have called 
themselves Christians were the cruelest and most inhumane people 
I have ever met.And for these reasons,I refuse to call myself 
by that name.You are free to believe that you are"better 
quality"than I am.That's OK,believe what you want.But if your 
actions match your words,you won't HAVE to tell anyone you're a 
Christian,they'll be able to figure it out.

I just read about that traitor walker scumbag that should be 
publicly hanged that the SCUMBAGS are planning another MAJOR 
TERRORIST ATTACK ON USA AND THIS TIME A BIOLOGICAL ATTACK THAT 
WILL WIPE OUT EVEN MORE PEOPLE THAT SEPTEMBER 11TH.  HE SAID 
THAT THEY ARE WAITING TILL AFTER RAMADEN ENDS ON SUNDAY TO CARRY 
OUT THEIR SICK ACT.  THESE FUCKERS SHOULDVE BEEN KILLED YEARS 
AGO.  GODDAMMIT!   I WISH I COULD KILL EVERY ONE OF THEM IN THE 
USA AND ABROAD.  COCKSUCKERS!  EVERYBODY WHAT IS YOUR IMPUT ON 
THIS! THIS IS THE NEWS THAT I READ TODAY. 

I don't mean to sound like I'm attacking,but I do get mad when 
Christian people act like they're better than the rest.Both of 
you talked as though I must have associated myself with a"lower 
class"of people in order to get the views I have.I'm bothered by 
that a little,but not offended.So please,you don't have to 
explain it to me or anything....its no big deal.We're dominating 
the board as it is!(LOL!)

Just for your information Maryland requires welfare recipients 
to:
1. Look for x number of jobs per week
2. Take classes to make them more marketable in the work place
3. Be off of welfare in either 2 or 5 years (I can't remember 
which)

It sounds really good (and is in some instances) but it is flawed 
and fails miserably in others.

There are NO easy answers.

Bill Gertz, of the Washington Times wrote about it today.  The 
scumbag terrorist that was captured stated that the taliban are 
waiting for the end of Ramidan this coming Sunday to go into 
PHASE TWO AND LAUNCH A HUGE BIOLOGICAL TERRORIST ACT THAT WILL 
BE SO LARGE THAT IT WILL LEAD TO THE DESTRUCTION OF THE ENTIRE 
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.   The link is 
www.washingtontimes.com/n...319822.htm or if you have trouble 
navigating it, go to www.metal-sludge.com and go to the ATTACK 
board where you can click on the direct link to it. This shit is 
getting to be too much already!  These fuckers are just waiting 
for the United States citizens to feel complacent again so that 
they can attack us .....................

No implication intended

In reference to your post (10:14:47),... and what a good post it 
was!...there are forces for good in the region, and I'm not just 
talking about in Afghanistan, but also in the countries that 
surround it. I shall not specify in what form this takes but it 
is there. For want of a more appropriate word, 
this 'organization' is committed to improving the situation in 
this region, given the 'right' conditions. The principle aims of 
this organization, are the provision of humanitarain aid, the 
provision of health care facilities and the medium to long term 
aim of the setting up of Schools and Universities in the region, 
and when I say Univerisities, I mean BIG Univerisities. The 
project may take 10-20 years to fully come to fruition, but as I 
say the conditions have to be right. What happened on Sept 11, 
was a terrible price for those directly involved, and for the 
American nation, to have to pay. One has to, as I've said before 
look to the good that can come out of such happenings. When 
things get bad, one simply re-doubles one's efforts. Personally, 
I think ALL the countries of the world have they're part to 
play, and, just as importantly individuals too, because it all 
makes a difference. You're right, the U.S.A. is not there to 
fight a war sanctified by God, but it is good at getting the job 
done if just left to do it. The U.S.A. in your opinion, (and 
your better placed, I guess, to voice that opinion) may well be 
there for it's own reasons in certain respects. However the 
world, in effect, is getting smaller every day, and I think the 
U.S. administration, whoever it might be, now or in the future 
knowing that it did not have to deal with such matters entirely 
by itself, would certainly help things. It would mean the effort 
of making the world, a better place for ALL, would be very much 
a joint effort. A Utopian ideal you say?...well..what better 
ideal! I know that the concerns you express are aimed, by and 
large, at your compatriots, but speaking as an outsider one 
perhaps should'nt vilify oneself too much. You have a deep 
social conscience (as others do on this board) which is 
apparent, and you're justifiably concerned at the wrongs you see 
around you, as we all are, WHEREVER we live in the world. You 
just happen to live in a country which has the most powerful 
military force on the planet. The U.S.A. is best placed to deal 
with international terrorists, and has taken that role upon 
itself. Prime Minister Tony Blair has offered the services of 
the troops available to him for peace-keeping purposes in 
Afghanistan to U.S.Secretary Colin Powell. I am hoping, that 
gesture is welcomed by Sec.Powell sooner rather than later. U.K. 
forces are extremely experienced in keeping apart opposing 
factions in the other countries they have been sent to. It's an 
extremely dangerous challenge, but it's a role the U.K. is well 
suited for. In time hopefully other '1st World' (odd term) 
nations will do the same, and in a couple of years, Turkey for 
instance, can take over peace-keeping duties in Afghanistan. 
This would be a good start in providing the 'right conditions' 
refered to previously. As a result of Sept 11, Russia has joined 
sides with the U.S. at least at certain levels, at one stage if 
you recall President Putin even offered to help rescue U.S. 
soldiers if they got into difficulties. Russia, I'd say would be 
as keen as anybody to see peace in the region,....that's one 
less negative factor, and it all helps. Food aid is getting into 
large areas of Afghanistan from, I understand, U.N., Christian 
and Muslim aid sources, just before the harshest winter 
conditions set in. It is of course, as it always is, down to the 
individual as to whether we reach into our wallets to help, we 
all know we have our own consciences to live with when all's 
said and done. That having been said, past a certain point 
people wherever they in the world have to look after, and take 
responsiblity for themselves. This is a start on a very long 
road, and as bad as you fear it might have been, I think it 
could have been a lot worse. I applaud you for that post.        

Apologies for my spelling...always in a rush...I never fail to 
notice them , just after I've posted!

DAMM, THAT MAKES ME MAD!!!!!

Speaking of movies...has anyone caught "The Turbanator" yet?
I hear it's supposed to be good!

http://afghansas.com/movies.asp

We all have different views on things,and that's fine with me.I 
was starting to take things personal,but I'm OK now.(LOL!!!)

Justice USA:But one good thing Walker(the Taliban 
traitor;brainwashed & misguided my ass!)did was to tell us about 
it.I'm sure they're getting more details than what is being told 
as of yet,and we can be better prepaired to deal with it.(even 
though the only reason he's talking is to save his own sorry 
ass).
 The rest of us will have to do what we've been told to do:to 
watch out for suspicious activity,and report it if we find 
it.Keep alert;I have a suspicion it will be 
smallpox.Remember,they want us to be angry and frightened.

I think that we would have gone over there no matter what 
anybody said,but it was a good thing to explain our position,and 
to ask for help in a problem that is growing larger in the world 
every year.And it is more gratifying than I am able to tell you 
that Britain stepped up and said"And we'll help you"!It's always 
good to have a friend standing next to you when you need help.And 
the terrorism problem is bigger than most realize.And of 
course,with the British and Americans working together again,the 
French will bitch and moan more than usual,so they'll have 
something to do also.(LOL)
 So,I thank you for your compliment to me,and for your country's 
aid in this time of crisis.
 
P.S.Mistakes in spelling?I mess up something in nearly every 
post.I over-stressed the spelling bit only when Eagle Eye and I 
were having our cyberspace dirt-clod war.I strongly suspect he 
had as much if not more fun than I did!

The world's problems can always be sorted out if people are 
willing to work together to achieve that aim. If people can get 
along on THIS board, the rest of the world has no excuses!

Take care Walter. Signing off for the day. 

What's the point? I mean really...what is the point in all of 
this madness.  Americans have been walking around thinking they 
are gods amoung the earth.  As an American I must say, 
patriastism has gone too far.  I can't even remember when had 
freedom speech was in effect.  One opinion is uttered and all 
eyes watch in amazment.  If you don't feel up to shooting an 
afghanastan in the head you are all of a sudden tried with 
treason.  We all believe killing Osama will end all of our 
problems. It's a waste of time and breath. All our other affairs 
have been put on hold so we can milk this poor blindsided attack 
in the spot light.  Charlotte Church said that Americans were 
being over dramatic, everyone freaked out but really, she is 
right.  

Walter,
Again, I apologize if I came off sounding anything LIKE I think 
I'm better than you.  That was absolutely not my intent.

I thought our afternoon's converation was excellent as it 
pointed out even more commonalities between us.  I think that a 
lot of times, people who seem to be diametrically opposed on 
things start out with an antagonistic attitude, and don't take 
the time to figure out what they DO have in common.  I've known 
for awhile now...thanks to Ashraf...that you are an intelligent 
man and that you and I share many views.  If there is ONE view 
that we don't share, perhaps it's only in level of optimism 
about our fellow Americans.  I've run into more of the non-
caring type that you describe here on the internet than anywhere 
else, so maybe there is a geographical difference.  I don't 
know.  I'm only sorry that you seem to have run into more 
callousness among people than I have.

Haha, this is great...I mean, even after three, or four people 
making comments on Mr. Big Man there correcting grammar, we 
still find him doing it. I don't care, whatever gets him off. 
Sorry for anyone who may have had something important to say, 
but I have a life, and only read a few posts. Lets see...a 
highly talked about subject was the American Taliband fighter 
leaking the plan for a second attack. Now, recently I listened 
to a few friends of mine talk about the various things they'd 
like to do to him. It was sick. Yes, I credit a lot of it to TV 
and movies exposing children to all the wrong things. But the 
fact is, we were never taught to reject any of that. Hate is 
just fine as long as you hate the right people. *Clap Clap* to 
whoever brought that up. Right, and as much as I'd like to 
believe that Al Queda or Osama had the ability to release a wave 
of death across the U.S. Its not going to happen people...I 
mean, come on. Its the just like the Anthrax scare, these 
foolish, rich, Americans are all off buying the chemical sprays 
for their mail, and boxes of rubber gloves. It did just what it 
was supposed to. Scare you. All the shallow 'culture-whores' are 
scared shitless. No one is going to launch biological weapons at 
America. Sorry, that was mostly to U.S.A Justice, I really 
enjoyed that one. Hmm, lost my train of thought, there were a 
few other things I was going to touch on...the guy asking about 
the solution. There is no solution, no one was right in this, 
and no one has been for a very long time. Everyone with 
thier "yeah, lets just nuke all those sand-niggers", thats the 
problem. In one way or another, we will...and soon enough, 
Saddam, and it will continue bouncing from one threatening, 
impoverished country to the next. It all goes back to what you 
value. Personally, I'll always vote for the underdog, in this 
case, because I'm jealous. I'm jealous that they have a cause 
they're willing to die for, that dispite everything they've 
suffered through, someone has the balls to stand up and fight 
for what he beleives in. For everything America has, that is one 
thing that we never will. Heart. 

I would doubt this nutcase was privy to any internal plans of
al-Qu'eda other than the rumours of the grunts like him. But
then again its amazing how many times rumours are based in fact.
 Im sure he is having the most attention getting conversations
he has ever had right about now with well trained interrogators
as well as all the Marine Corps support, being the only prisoner
(I mean detainee) in the camp.
 Lets also remember that this shithead is from a fairly well off
family and dear old daddy hired a high powered laywer early on
for his poor braindead punk of a kid. Daddy hits the talk show
circuit to tell the sad, sad story of the brainless product he
has produced and how he'll give him a tap on the ass and send
him to bed when he gets home. To hear his dad tell it, all he did
was run away from home. I hope they try him for treason at the
least then put the worthless fuck to death.
 EagleEye was right on the money when the story broke, how much
money will this pathetic turd and his family make?
My pledge for poor Johnny is zero!

What's the point? I mean really...

I can't even remember when had 
freedom speech was in effect.

If you don't feel up to shooting an 
afghanastan in the head you are all of a sudden tried with 
treason. 

It's a waste of time and breath 
--------------------------------------------------------------

I must be turning pacifist, I just cant do it!

A very talkative day! It was good reading I must say. I just 
wanted to say that it would take a lot more than smallpox to 
wipe out all of america (but I do think that is probably the 
most likely biological culprit). There's already millions of 
vaccines available and I think it will be extremely hard for 
these people to effectively deliver their weapon widely 
enough. I guess if they all got sick and went to different 
cities and public places it could spread pretty fast, but I think 
it will be harder than it sounds. I guess we'll see 
though...what do we look for? Coughing Arabs with bumps? 
I don't know, I'm hoping we'll get them all first. Maybe we 
should have a vaccination program for the end of the week? 
(mayhem!) I think it would be the worst thing imaginable if 
they tried to spread a disease though...I certainly could be 
self-defeating in the long run. No plagues in Mecca? this 
would be a good start.

Anhow...Walter, I enjoy reading your posts. You might get the 
common sense award for the day. I think I'd be all for a flat 
tax if it could save on beurocracy, though I do think there 
would need to be incentives for the wealthy to help others 
since greed eventually wins out in the human psyche. I think 
part of the logic in not having a high sales tax is to promote 
commerce, which in turn promotes growth. I do think people 
are trying to work on solutions to economic problems, but 
it's like trying to put out a forest fire...if you concentrate your 
efforts in one area, another is bound to flare up. Your idea 
about jails is right-on! 

Hi Missin' and Smiley, It's nice to know there are Christians 
out there doing their best. If all Christians would make more 
of an effort to be like Christ, this world would be a better 
place. 

Walter, I am glad that you are trying to be the best person 
you can be. I am thankful for all the people who are doing 
their best to be good. Apathy is the bane of this world. 

No apology needed.I was taking things far too serious.I've 
always viewed myself as an"optimistic pessimist".I hope that 
things aren't as bad as I think they are!(LOL!!)

 And just to kind of explain how cynical I am:When they showed 
the food packets being dropped in Afghanistan on TV,I turned to 
my friends and said"And the really lucky part is.....they're 
microwaveable!"everyone laughed,and then called me an asshole(as 
usual).

The distance between our Macs and PCs is about a pair of sneekers monthly over 
here...

But some music stuff actually is Mac only...

Besides, we need really flawless postscript and colour-sync for our Canon CLC 
anyway, we do't want t spend too many trials on that.

We just started playing with OSX and the latest version has good lift, without actually 
showing its' scary Unix guts.

But as it stands, our one Microstation even on NT4 burns rubber, it's just "howfullee" 
expensive over here and at times NT makes us somewhat depressive.



Anyway, give us some more poetry, our junior editor is craving...


From Europe,   Radio Europe, 00.51PM C.E.T.

I was going to comment on his post but.........it would be like 
trying to explain to your dog how magnets work.

I guess when Tyler himself is a victim of anything, we should 
all just look away and ignore him, eh?  Cause there's nothing we 
could have done anyway...in his opinion.

It really makes me sad that Arabs come in here able to 
communicate in English so much better than one of our own 
Americans.

I'm still rolling! Loved the "microwaveable" remark.  I think 
you'd make a great friend, Walter.  And, I can relate 100% to 
the optomistic pessimist remark too.

Hey Zac? 
How many of your friends thought that terrorists could steal 
planes and topple the World Trade Center towers?  Oh, or did you 
all think that was just a movie made up by the U.S. Government 
in order to get people to be more patriotic and to forget about 
the impending recession?  You think that was so much easier than 
slipping some smallpox into the country?  What planet are YOU 
from?

Oh, and Zac? There is a lot here in this country that I'd die 
for.  You are showing your youth.  Anyone (well almost) who has 
a child would die to protect that child.  Some of us are ex-
military.  Anyone in the military is sworn to die for this 
country if needed.  I wish you'd show some respect for all those 
people here who ARE willing to die for what they believe in.  

You are obviously a spoiled little boy, and I wish you'd grow up 
before you have to learn the hard way.

Even in times of war it is not right to kill the enemy if
said enemy is unarmed. (Kind of a takoff from Gorden Liddys'
"in a battle of wits, sir.....you are unarmed.) 
 Missin, I was also glad to hear the B1 boys were ok too. The B1
used to full of problems. We had a airshow here where I worked
as a volunteer at a cousins request (he was on the board, and 
into it big time). This was a few years back now, but everyone
was disappointed when the big draw that year a B1, didnt land
but did a low flyby and kept goin. We asked some of the Air Force
pilots that were there what was up. They said, at that time early
on for the B1, they never landed at public airshows because
eveytime they did, problems were found that would not allow
takeoff untill fixed. Im sure the problems have been handled
by now hopefully and 2 Harriers put on hell of a show that day, 
disappearing while other events went on only later to pop up
behind some hills to the south, then streak across low in front
of the crowd. I swear I saw grown men with buldges in the back
of their pants! LOL!

You wouldn't by any chance be talking about the airshow at 
Offutt Air Force Base would you?It sure sounds like it.As far as 
I know,thats the only one in the area that could handle B1's and 
the Harriers in the Midwest.

Haha, first off I must thank you all for your heartfelt 
response to the two of us.  Not only have about 80% of all new 
posts been directed at us in one way or the other, but we've 
even got nicknames now.  Fabulous.  Well, glad to get someone's 
short attention span off jerking off with the american flag 
enough to do anything.  
     Yes, you've all made my day, I've had an ear-to-ear grin 
plastered on my face since I started reding those responses of 
yours'.  You all try to seem so superior, so educated and 
eloquent, while accusing us of being elitist.  Your comments 
contain little if any substance whatsoever, and you complain 
becasue to you our's seem to have no message.
     Although hypocrite may be a term entirely too overused, if 
it's not aplicable here, I don't know when it is.  Even past not 
having any message in any of your responses to either of us, you 
have tried to play childish little games.  I see the same 
tactics every time I confront recruiters about the morality of 
sending children to die in a politician's war.  When they give 
up and they know they're losing face in public they resort to 
trying to intimidate me, make me lose face in front of the 
crowd.  Call me a coward when you send children to die in your 
wars, call me a coward when, while I'm out fighting for what I 
believe in when you're sitting in your homes, watching the news 
and cheering becasue we killed the "sand niggers."  
     Which brings me to another point entirely.  "Sand niggers," 
huh?  Yeah, in the weeks...hell...months since September 11th, 
I've heard "A Taliban Christmas" seen people wearing shirts with 
Osama's head in a crosshair, seen doctored pictures of him 
fucking a donkey and being sodomized by the american flag.  The 
way I see it, maybe he's right.  Maybe americans do deserve to 
die.  I haven't seen anything to suggest otherwise.
     In any case, I'm tired of delivering impromptu speeches to 
all of you, so I'm going to finish this particular one off soon, 
but first, just a few points.
     Have I not made it terribly clear to all of you that I am 
not in college?  As such, how can Zac be my roommate, and who 
the fuck is 'Whispers'?  Yes, we're friends(Zac and I that is), 
and happen to have similar views on the 'state of the union' so 
to speak, and how it is that we remedy that state, but roommates 
we are not.
     You all seem to be terribly selective in the points you 
want to bring up, not that they're fabulous ones in the first 
place, or that you really said anything legitimate in the first 
place, but to answer the one real question that I've managed to 
sort out of all of this, yes, I took my SAT's in 7th grade, 
after qualifying high enough on the CAT tests, and no that's not 
standard practise in my school, district, or state for that 
matter.  I was given a scholarship to go to Cornell University 
over the summer to take an accelerated course of my choice(Which 
happened to be intro to psych) with the Johns Hopkins Search For 
Talented Youth(or CTY for the acronym impaired), which was 
integrated with the IAAY(Institute for the academic advancement 
of youth).  In any case, basically it was an entire college 
course compressed into three weeks.  And I don't recall exactly 
where I got my national score.  Had to figure it out myself as I 
remember, on a grid they gave me.  
     Anyway, that's pretty much it.  All of you have fun now 
trying to find some error in my writing.

Wow, I don't know if you're trying to annoy me, or just 
have a great selective memory. See, your 'Oh you're just young 
and inexperienced' card doesn't work. The great thing about 
being young, is I still have a mind of my own. I have little 
worry about money, because, put simply, I'm not fucking spoiled. 
I'm clinging to lower-middle class here, but that isn't 
important. Those factors shouldn't mattter, the fact is, I 
havn't been crushed with the nice circular economy, or been 
burdened with others, like children, that merely take away from 
who I really am. Right, now that I've had to bring that up 
again, ex-military huh? That would explain the your intense 
beleif that the US is right. 
    Now someone was angry with me for swearing to often, I tell 
you what, if I don't have to read stupid assed comments about 
the American Taliban, then I won't have to be vulgar. Now, do 
any of you know why he went there? Huh? I don't think one of you 
thought at all about that...try him for treason, thats fucking 
rediculous. He was what? Seventeen when he found religion, and 
yes, I think it's sad when people have to turn back to religion, 
but isn't that supposed to be one of the damn reasons our 
country was founded? Huh? Come on people, you accuse us of being 
inexperienced and impressionable, thats bullshit, I don't think 
half of you even know what you're talking about. He studied 
there, and for the same reason that you think we're right, he 
thinks they were right. 
     You know, it's pathetic how all of you claim to be so...so 
great, and claim to personify American values, and yet you 
preech murder. I havn't heard anyone reprimand these morons for 
advocating death to all that don't agree with you. Ah...well 
again I'm sure there was something I'm forgetting to reply to, 
but this is for all of you who accuse me, and Ben, oh, and Tyler 
Durden, great book you took the name from, keep up the good 
work. Yes, for those that accuse us of not having substance to 
our posts. Oh, and Missin', try not to tell me how much 
experience we have, I know it will be hard since thats really 
the only thing you tell us, but...its really not working.

Nice to have you here, Tyler.  You seem to have the right idea, 
if not the vigor to really assert it.  Oh well, maybe I'm wrong, 
or maybe you'll learn, but either way, welcome to the foray.

No. A liittle known town in northern Illinois called Rockford.
Our airport is in the mix of the fight to handle Ohare overflow.
It is a major hub for UPS which built their operations at the
airport at least 5 years ago. Big UPS cargo planes flying over 
town all night long!
 It had like 5 passenger companys doing flights in and out till
about a year ago when the current Govener of Illinos Ryan deemed
a new airport would be built to handle Ohare overflow in guess
where, his liitle hometown of Peotone. If anyone wants to talk
about political crooks, Illinois has the Godfather. This is the
same Govenor Ryan whos buddys got nailed in a drivers license
for money scandel while he was Secratary of State. This idiot
went to Cuba when the whole Elian Gonzolez thing was going on
on the taxpayers dime trying to make the bad stuff go away. Didnt
work though, his people checked the approval ratings and declared
sometime back he would not run for a 2nd term.
 So in short, there is a nice airport sitting here doing 
nothing other than UPS, which, dont get me wrong, it brought a 
lot of jobs, but its like 3-4 hours per night. Two people at my
company work 8 hours then go to UPS for 3-4 more.
 As a sidelight, 9/11/01 when all planes were ordered to land
one passenger plane headed to Ohare, 90 miles east, landed in
Rockford and I tell you, they had SWAT teams, the sniffing dogs
and every precaution was taken. The local news interviewed some
of the passengers and they were freaked out! Not from the police
being there so much as being in flight when the pilot told them,
due to a national emergency they had to land immediatly.
 Ya, everybody in this neck of the woods is worried about
terrorists. In northrn Illinois there is, of course Chicago,
but also several nuclear power plants, the closest to me being
in Byron, about 15 miles away. On a clear day, you can see the 
2 cooling towers belching smoke from my backyard.

theE.S.D. is leaving this board---we hope you can 
understand------

we have done our part----(for now)------

Spy is the 2nd in charge here at theE.S.D.

ThankYouAllForTheEducation.

 MerryChristmas---and 
GodBless.

Signed:
theE.S.D. and Spy.

(we will continue to monitor..thanks)     

You all try to seem so superior, so educated and 
eloquent, while accusing us of being 
elitist.                                                         
                                                                 
"I admit, I'm elitest, it saves a lot of time.  It 
bores me to argue with the mass of you about the same issues 
over and over".

-----------------------------------------------------------------

 What the hell gives you jackasses? Bent, your compadres seem to
be slightly behind your sharp mind. How can you permit yourself
to be associated with such riffraff! Shame on you! Have you
properly checked their ACT scores (be sure to use that worldwide
approach as a sort of curve)?

----------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------

Now someone was angry with me for swearing to often, I tell 
you what, if I don't have to read stupid assed comments about 
the American Taliban, then I won't have to be vulgar.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

 Zacoff, please read some posts earlier today so I can laugh
at you later tonight. Maybe you'll get so mad you'll invent
the internet. Wait Al Gore already did that. Maybe you could
come up with a new cuss word that will sweep the country. Now
there something to tell the grandchildren about in your old age.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------

 Tyler: You are in essence, John Walker.

Hi, that's right the fundamentalist group target the poor and 
poor in spirit, and blame the west, christianity and other 
muslim groups who do not believe in their stupid cause, and 
especially America for what is happening to them. These poor 
people do not have the information like we do so they are easily 
influence. They were told all kind of story, that the enemy are 
the cause of the misery.

Just imagine if these fundamentalist were to come and tell us 
about the cheap story, we would not accepted it.

One good example is Malaysia. There is this group of opposition 
party called PAS(Parti Islam) they are the biggest muslim group 
in Malaysia and are quite popular with the muslim community. 
When the American start the bombing in Afghan, their leader 
Datuk Fadzil Noor told the whole Malaysian community that the 
American are "war criminal" and called on all muslim to opposed 
them and call for Jihad against the American. This does not go 
well with the Malaysian multi racial society and only tarnish 
the name of Islam. The ruling party(UMNO)also muslim group let 
by Prime Minister Dr Mahatir condemed the PAS and call them 
fundamentalist tarnishing the name of Islam. The people, 
including muslim agreed with the Prime minister. Now the PAS is 
loosing is popularity and blaming UMNO for tarnishing their 
party name. What a Joke. The LeaderPAS) should move out of their 
bungalow house and go and have his jihad in Afghanistan instead 
of asking young innocence, ignorance youth to go there. It is 
the people who can read, see and hear information and judge for 
themselves who is right and who is wrong.

Come back to our story, is there any humanitarian organization 
run by muslim organization that is helping the poor muslim 
around the world. I know one from the states that recently had 
their finance frozen because the money was going to Hamas and 
other fundametalist group to help in terrorist act.

Any muslim friend reading this, can you please enlighten me.

The Red Cross and Savaltion Army are not muslim group and yet 
they play a vital role each time there are trouble in Muslim 
countries.

Hey, my muslim brothers, something need to be done, instead of 
Jihad, why don't you volunteer to be humanitarian workers, 
sponsors, organiser, teachers, peace keepers. Trust me, Allah 
would be more please than your suicide mission and I believe the 
the Koran stresses more of helping the poor rather than the so 
called Jihad. God is Great.
        

                      LET US ALL PRAY AS ONE

Do you really believe that if you yell at people through an 
internet post that you will get your message across that 
innocent lives were taken in the terrorist attacks on September 
11th, or that the woman who posted that message is proof that 
all of the modern world is evil?  Look around yourselves.  What 
do you see?  Hatred that is festering and bringing on more 
violence than ever before.  Muslims are not to blame for the 
atrocities that happen around the nation.  Neither is the 
American people.  Both groups have refused to see eye to eye or 
even budge from their beliefs.  As an American citizen I watched 
the terrorist attacks unfold via television link to the 
classroom.  The horrors that I witnessed on the television did 
not come close to the horrors that I faced walking through my 
school that day.  With the attacks another generation of 
Americans were infested with a hatred and disgust for 
foreigners.  It is atrocious that the future leaders of America 
were talking about getting the "Arab bastards" who led the 
terrorist attacks (at this time they were jumping to conclusions 
as not enough evidence had been found to accuse anyone of the 
attacks).  Other countries do have a right to dislike 
Americans.  We believe that we are infallable.  We believe that 
we are supreme over other countries therefore our beliefs and 
policies must be extended to others.  But this does not 
constitute as a legitimate excuse for the killing of thousands 
of innocent people.
  In short, each side must learn to trust the other.  Without 
that, where can we begin to build bridges of hope and 
friendship, so that our children may be brought up in a world 
with less hatred (stemmed from our misunderstandings of each 
other)?
  I pray for peace in the hearts of everyone.  The god that I 
pray to is Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior.  This god is also 
Allah (not a separate god, but the Arabic word for god).  This 
is also the god Yahweh.  I'll bet that most of you did not 
realize that the Muslim god, the Jewish god, and the Christian 
god are the same person, but they are worshiped in different 
ways.  If only we could find some more similarities, maybe the 
world wouldn't be such a frightening place to live in.
  Peace to all,
     Sylvia - a teenager from Kansas, USA

Posting back to you reguarding the airshow I was talking
about I failed to see the, uh-oh lol, in the subject line.
 Apparently you think I am a liar. I dont lie and I say what
I mean. That b-1 was on its way to a base which may have well
been in Nebraska. Again, this was some years ago and I cant
remember every specific detail but I can scan the newspaper
articles at the library and post them if you wish.

I stayed in Rockport for 1 night during a snowstorm in 
1977.Didn't get to see much of the town though.Didn't get to see 
much of anything for that matter.We were coming back from my 
first and only trip to New York City.I think I can tell you 
now(since I hope no one is hunting me down still)that I live in 
Omaha,Nebraska.We have SAC air base on one end,and a nuclear 
plant(yep,not just corn anymore!LOL!)on the other,and either 
could be a target for terrorists.And jets are constantly flying 
over the airspace around the base.Everyone knew that we were 
probably safe here since they flew Bush here the morning of 
9-11.But SAC is an important target,and a few days after the 
attack,a town nearby tested its air-raid sirens and I pulled my 
car over and jumped out,trying to see where the attack was coming 
from.A heart-stopping moment.

No the uh-oh lol was for the fact that you might live in 
Bellevue,Nebraska(where SAC is based)and if you were still pissed 
off,and wanted to kick my ass,or kill me,you wouldn't have very 
far to drive,since I only live about 10 miles from the base.

Im not pissed, Ive got to many other things in real life to
really piss me off. Well ok, its Rockford not Rockport, 2nd
largest city in Illinois (back and forth with Peoria). Population
about 150,000. Close enough to Chicago (90 miles west) to enjoy
the museums and all, but not have to deal with that traffic
every day.
 So what does anybody think about Isreal cutting ties to
Arafat. I think its been so obvious he has no control over
the militant Palistinians, the only reason Isreal is doing
it now is because no leader has stepped up.
 


 

Sorry,it was Rockford,we were by interstate 90,trying to get to 
80.
 I'm surprised that the Arafat news didn't happen weeks ago.I 
don't think a new leader will help,because revenge is wanted on 
both sides,and it will have to get worse before anyone will 
say,enough is enough.And our military are already close by,and I 
hope to God we don't stop by to help out,because if we do that,it 
very well could be the beginning of something huge.

Pakistan expresses solidarity with Palestinians


 DOHA, December 12 (PNS): Pakistan has stressed for the 
establishment of an independent Palestinian state calling upon 
the
 international community to take proactive measures in 
maintaining peace in the Middle East. 

 Pakistani Foreign minister Abdul Sattar in an interview with 
Al-Jazeera TV Tuesday at the sidelines of OIC foreign ministerial 
moot
 emphasised peaceful settlement of the issue in accordance with 
the legitimate demands of the Palestinians. 

 He said that Palestinian's resistance to Israeli forces is fully 
supported and backed by Pakistan and we strongly condemn renewed
 escalation of violence by Israeli forces and killing of large 
number of innocent people as a result. 

 He added that the extraordinary OIC session expressed complete 
solidarity with the Palestinian freedom movement. 

Wednesday, December 12, 2001; 3:53 PM 

 LOS ANGELES    The chairman of the militant Jewish Defense 
League and a follower have been arrested on suspicion of plotting 
to
 blow up a Los Angeles mosque and the office of an Arab American 
congressman, federal authorities said Wednesday. 

 Irv Rubin, 56, and a member of the group, Earl Krugel, 59, both 
of Los Angeles, were arrested Tuesday night after the last 
component
 of the bomb   explosive powder   was delivered to Krugel's home, 
U.S. Attorney John S. Gordon said. 

 Other bomb components and weapons were seized at Krugel's home. 

 Full Link to Washington Post News Story: 
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A32936-2001Dec12.ht
ml

Sure feels like a good time to head for the woods again. Ah 
well, another couple of days.

I just read a news item about Afghanistan that was funny as 
hell.Earlier I mentioned that their monetary system was just 
about chrushed,and now I read that some are trading in Pakistan 
currency,and do you know what they're buying with 
it?TV's,VCR's,and one guy is hammering tin into satellite 
dishes!He's increased his income tenfold!
 They may be still in trouble with having enough to eat,but 
they're learning all about capitalism in a few short 
weeks!Hopefully,they can get through the winter.I hope they get 
computers soon so I can e-mail them,and tell them to stop making 
me look like an idiot!

I havent been around for a week or so, getting ready for the 
holidays and the arrival of my daughter ( remember the one who 
you were so worried about?) and my grandkids.
Just wanted to stop in to let you know that her prognosis is 
good.
The doctors removed the problem tumor and got everything out.

It is refreshing to read your posts as of late.

There is NO way I can find the time to read all of the postings 
that I have missed in the past week, but it would be interesting 
to me to have watched the transition.

I apologize for rankin on you a couple of weeks ago, but you 
were quite obnoxious, good to see another side of you.

Im callin my brother off! : )

We'll miss your informative posts!

I'm not sure which posts you are referring to,since I've had a 
lot of help from others who were worried that I might be 
tired,and decided to use my name to help out,so to speak.If you 
talk to any others on this board,through phone or e-mail,talk to 
them,or ask me outright,and I'll tell you.The only thing I can 
tell you is that short shitty ones are not usually mine,but long 
pissed off ones usually are.

all people who have hate and fear inside them will burn for all 
eternity and it is a shame to see such ignorance in people in 
a "civilized world" just remember what you are all saying when I 
look you in the eyes passing through the glourified gates as 
dark demon shadows drag you to your miserable fate in hell, 
where all types of pain and suffering only being to show you 
that you will regret everything you have ever done or said that 
was hateful.
-love a 22 year old male from maine.
ps. oh yeah, and if any of you osama followers think you are so 
smart...come get me, id love to bump into you in a dark alley way

from   sATAN
TO: ZION FORCES ADVANCE AGAINST NEW YORK CITY 

Keep talking shit asshole, your days are numbered.
and SHUT the Fuck up!!!
all jewish will taste the fuckn consequiences soon.
ya mother fucker just keep dreaming about your target ya wanna 
achive it.
 


        I will simpely say ya r losers.
 


                   NEVER
                 NEVER 
                    NEVER
                 WIIL USA LET YA TO GET YOUR TARGETS.
                   LOVE USA
                   LOVE HITLLER

Bye E.S.D. I'll miss your posts.

What's with all these crazies comin' outta the walls all of a 
sudden? Has anyone else noticed an increase?

Hey ~snake-eyes~, good to see ya.  I finally figured out the 
multiple Walter thing.  I'll drop you a note on ICQ as to how 
you can spot a fake.

Walter, I read that same article.  I guess that's what led me to 
believe that it wasn't quite so bad as it sounded at first over 
there.  I truly hope that things ARE better there, now that 
we've cleared the way to get supplies in to them.

I just want to say to all the great people here...you all know 
who you are...that I'm really gonna miss you all when I go 
Missin' again for good soon.  I've been on medical leave this 
past 4 weeks...tomorrow is the last day.  And, next week, I'll 
be moving to the woods for good.  My honey and I will be getting 
married New Year's Day at 3pm CST.  Send a toast my way, will ya?
I'll be around until tomorrow afternoon, then maybe once or 
twice next week, but after that, I'm pretty sure I won't be 
having time for any of the message boards that I frequent.  Six 
kids, you know.(Fortunately only 4 at home) 

I've enjoyed getting to know you all very much.  Keep up the 
good work...and Keep the Faith!

YOU WILL 
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Received this via email from a friend.  Thought it was pretty 
funny.  For all you analytical thinkers, enjoy!

This was an actual question given on a University of Washington 
physics midterm: "Is Hell exothermic (gives off heat) or 
endothermic (absorbs heat)? Support your answer with proof".  
Most of the students wrote proofs of their beliefs using Boyle's 
Law (gas cools off when it expands and heats up when it is 
compressed) or some  variant.  One student, however, wrote the 
following: 

First, we need to know how the mass of Hell is changing in 
time.  So, we need to know the rate that souls are moving into 
Hell and the rate they are leaving.  I think that we can safely 
assume that once a soul gets to Hell, it will not leave. 
Therefore, no souls are leaving.  As for how  many souls are 
entering Hell, let's look at the different religions that exist 
in the world today. Some of these religions state that if you 
are not a member of their religion, you will go to Hell.  Since 
there are more than one of these religions and since people do 
not belong to more than one religion, we can project that all 
people and all souls go to Hell.  With birth and death rates as 
they are,  we can expect the number of souls in Hell to increase 
exponentially.  Now, we look at the rate of change of the volume 
in Hell because Boyle's Law states that in order for temperature 
and the pressure in Hell to stay the same, the volume of Hell 
has to expand as souls are added.  
This gives two possibilities:

1. If Hell is expanding at a slower rate than the rate at which 
souls enter Hell, then the temperature and pressure in Hell will 
increase until "all Hell breaks loose".  

2. Of course, if Hell is expanding at a rate faster than the 
increase of souls in Hell, then the temperature and pressure 
will drop until "Hell freezes over".  

So which is it?  If we accept the postulate given to me by Miss 
Therese Banyan during my Freshman year, that "It will be a cold 
night in Hell before I sleep with you", and take into account 
the fact that I still have not succeeded in that area, then (2) 
cannot be true.  So Hell is exothermic. This student is the only 
one who received an "A" for the exam.

You said -->  "I've heard "A Taliban Christmas" seen people 
wearing shirts with Osama's head in a crosshair, seen doctored 
pictures of him fucking a donkey and being sodomized by the 
american flag.  The way I see it, maybe he's right.  Maybe 
americans do deserve to die.  I haven't seen anything to suggest 
otherwise."

Response -->  You say maybe Americans deserve to die?  You 
haven't seen anything to suggest otherwise?  This is your 
response to viewing doctored photos of Usama and the American 
flag?  You think Americans should die?  Please elaborate for us.

John
E pluribus unum

You said -->  "I've heard "A Taliban Christmas" seen people 
wearing shirts with Osama's head in a crosshair, seen doctored 
pictures of him fucking a donkey and being sodomized by the 
american flag.  The way I see it, maybe he's right.  Maybe 
americans do deserve to die.  I haven't seen anything to suggest 
otherwise."

Response -->  You say maybe Americans deserve to die?  You 
haven't seen anything to suggest otherwise?  This is your 
response to viewing doctored photos of Usama and the American 
flag?  You think Americans should die?  Please elaborate for us.

John
E pluribus unum

You said -->  "I've heard "A Taliban Christmas" seen people 
wearing shirts with Osama's head in a crosshair, seen doctored 
pictures of him fucking a donkey and being sodomized by the 
american flag.  The way I see it, maybe he's right.  Maybe 
americans do deserve to die.  I haven't seen anything to suggest 
otherwise."

Response -->  You say maybe Americans deserve to die?  You 
haven't seen anything to suggest otherwise?  This is your 
response to viewing doctored photos of Usama and the American 
flag?  You think Americans should die?  Please elaborate for us.

John
E pluribus unum

Hey Missin'   Congratulations!!!   Have a GREAT life.

John
E...

>>>>>>>>>>
The god that I pray to is Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior.  
This god is also Allah (not a separate god, but the Arabic word 
for god).  This is also the god Yahweh.  I'll bet that most of 
you did not realize that the Muslim god, the Jewish god, and the 
Christian god are the same person, but they are worshiped in 
different ways.
<<<<<<<<<<<

No, Sylvia, please don't take offense but these three are not one 
in the same.  God and Yahweh are, in fact different names for the 
same entity.  The god of the Koran, however, originated from a 
pagan (pagan from a Christian standpoint) moon god, hence the 
crescent moon symbol used to symbolize the Muslim faith.  I can't 
remember the exact details right now but I will take a look 
around and post my back-up for these statements later.

YOU CAN GO HUMP A GOAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Don't know if I spelled that right...
So did you catch the tape of Bin Laden & his cohorts sitting 
around talking & laughing about their plans for 9/11?  Is that 
evidence enough for you now, to see & hear him gloating and 
expressing his amusement over the fact that not even the young 
men going to their deaths knew that they were on a suicide 
mission...
Funny the double standard.  Killing Afghani's if they took a 
picture, yet filming that dinner for his own posterity.

Here's to ya!  Congratulations!
We'll be MISSIN' you!
Look forward to your upcoming 'Woods of Arkansas'.

I had to save that!I wish I could meet that guy.He doesn't need 
a physics degree as much as he needs an agent!

Transcript of bin Laden video tape  

-----------------------------------------------------------------
---------------
 
 
 
The following is the English translation of a videotape showing 
Osama bin Laden discussing the Sept. 11 attacks with friends, as 
supplied by the Pentagon:
       
       
       (Transcript and annotations independently prepared by 
George Michael, translator, Diplomatic Language Services; and 
Dr. Kassem M. Wahba, Arabic language program coordinator, School 
of Advanced International Studies, Johns Hopkins University. 
They collaborated on their translation and compared it with 
translations done by the U.S. government for consistency. There 
were no inconsistencies in the translations.)
       
       In mid-November, Usama Bin Laden spoke to a room of 
supporters, possibly in Qandahar, Afghanistan. These comments 
were video taped with the knowledge of Bin Laden and all present.
       
       Note: The tape is approximately one hour long and 
contains three different segments: an original taping of a visit 
by some people to the site of the downed U.S. helicopter in 
Ghazni province (approximately 12 minutes long); and two 
segments documenting a courtesy visit by Bin Laden and his 
lieutenants to an unidentified Shaykh, who appears crippled from 
the waist down. The visit apparently takes place at a guesthouse 
in Qandahar. The sequence of the events is reversed on the tape-
the end of his visit is in the beginning of the tape with the 
helicopter site visit in the middle and the start of the Usama 
bin Laden visit beginning approximately 39 minutes into the 
tape. The tape is transcribed below according to the proper 
sequence of events.
       Due to the quality of the original tape, it is NOT a 
verbatim transcript of every word spoken during the meeting, but 
does convey the messages and information flow.
       
       EDITOR S NOTE: 39 minutes into tape, first segment of the 
bin Laden meeting, begins after footage of helicopter site visit
       
       Shaykh: (...inaudible...) You have given us weapons, you 
have given us hope and we thank Allah for you. We don t want to 
take much of your time, but this is the arrangement of the 
brothers. People now are supporting us more, even those ones who 
did not support us in the past, support us more now. I did not 
want to take that much of your time. We praise Allah, we praise 
Allah. We came from Kabul. We were very pleased to visit. May 
Allah bless you both at home and the camp. We asked the driver 
to take us, it was a night with a full moon, thanks be to Allah. 
Believe me it is not in the country side. The 
elderly...everybody praises what you did, the great action you 
did, which was first and foremost by the grace of Allah. This is 
the guidance of Allah and the blessed fruit of jihad.
       UBL: Thanks to Allah. What is the stand of the Mosques 
there (in Saudi Arabia)?
       Shaykh: Honestly, they are very positive. Shaykh Al-
Bahrani (phonetic) gave a good sermon in his class after the 
sunset prayers. It was videotaped and I was supposed to carry it 
with me, but unfortunately, I had to leave immediately.
       UBL: The day of the events?
       Shaykh: At the exact time of the attack on America, 
precisely at the time. He (Bahrani) gave a very impressive 
sermon. Thanks be to Allah for his blessings. He (Bahrani) was 
the first one to write at war time. I visited him twice in Al-
Qasim.
       UBL: Thanks be to Allah.
       Shaykh: This is what I asked from Allah. He (Bahrani) 
told the youth:  You are asking for martyrdom and wonder where 
you should go (for martyrdom)?  Allah was inciting them to go. I 
asked Allah to grant me to witness the truth in front of the 
unjust ruler. We ask Allah to protect him and give him the 
martyrdom, after he issued the first fatwa. He was detained for 
interrogation, as you know. When he was called in and asked to 
sign, he told them,  don t waste my time, I have another fatwa. 
If you want me, I can sign both at the same time. 
       UBL: Thanks be to Allah.
       Shaykh: His position is really very encouraging. When I 
paid him the first visit about a year and half ago, he asked 
me,  How is Shaykh Bin-Ladin?  He sends you his special regards. 
As far as Shaykh Sulayman  Ulwan is concerned, he gave a 
beautiful fatwa, may Allah bless him. Miraculously, I heard it 
on the Quran radio station. It was strange because he ( Ulwan) 
sacrificed his position, which is equivalent to a director. It 
was transcribed word-by-word. The brothers listened to it in 
detail. I briefly heard it before the noon prayers. He ( Ulwan) 
said this was jihad and those people were not innocent people 
(World Trade Center and Pentagon victims). He swore to Allah. 
This was transmitted to Shaykh Sulayman Al (( Umar)) Allah bless 
him.
       UBL: What about Shaykh Al-((Rayan))?
       Shaykh: Honestly, I did not meet with him. My movements 
were truly limited.
       UBL: Allah bless you. You are welcome.
       Shaykh: (Describing the trip to the meeting) They 
smuggled us and then I thought that we would be in different 
caves inside the mountains so I was surprised at the guest house 
and that it is very clean and comfortable. Thanks be to Allah, 
we also learned that this location is safe, by Allah s 
blessings. The place is clean and we are very comfortable.
       UBL: (...Inaudible...) when people see a strong horse and 
a weak horse, by nature, they will like the strong horse. This 
is only one goal; those who want people to worship the lord of 
the people, without following that doctrine, will be following 
the doctrine of Muhammad, peace be upon him.
       (UBL quotes several short and incomplete Hadith verses, 
as follows):
        I was ordered to fight the people until they say there 
is no god but Allah, and his prophet Muhammad. 
        Some people may ask: why do you want to fight us? 
        There is an association between those who say: I believe 
in one god and Muhammad is his prophet, and those who don t 
(...inaudible...)
        Those who do not follow the true fiqh. The fiqh of 
Muhammad, the real fiqh. They are just accepting what is being 
said at face value. 
       UBL: Those youth who conducted the operations did not 
accept any fiqh in the popular terms, but they accepted the fiqh 
that the prophet Muhammad brought. Those young men 
(...inaudible...) said in deeds, in New York and Washington, 
speeches that overshadowed all other speeches made everywhere 
else in the world. The speeches are understood by both Arabs and 
non-Arabs-even by Chinese. It is above all the media said. Some 
of them said that in Holland, at one of the centers, the number 
of people who accepted Islam during the days that followed the 
operations were more than the people who accepted Islam in the 
last eleven years. I heard someone on Islamic radio who owns a 
school in America say:  We don t have time to keep up with the 
demands of those who are asking about Islamic books to learn 
about Islam.  This event made people think (about true Islam) 
which benefited Islam greatly.
       Shaykh: Hundreds of people used to doubt you and few only 
would follow you until this huge event happened. Now hundreds of 
people are coming out to join you. I remember a vision by Shaykh 
Salih Al-((Shuaybi)). He said:  There will be a great hit and 
people will go out by hundreds to Afghanistan.  I asked him 
(Salih):  To Afghanistan?  He replied,  Yes.  According to him, 
the only ones who stay behind will be the mentally impotent and 
the liars (hypocrites). I remembered his saying that hundreds of 
people will go out to Afghanistan. He had this vision a year 
ago. This event discriminated between the different types of 
followers.
       UBL: (...Inaudible...) we calculated in advance the 
number of casualties from the enemy, who would be killed based 
on the position of the tower. We calculated that the floors that 
would be hit would be three or four floors. I was the most 
optimistic of them all. (...Inaudible...) due to my experience 
in this field, I was thinking that the fire from the gas in the 
plane would melt the iron structure of the building and collapse 
the area where the plane hit and all the floors above it only. 
This is all that we had hoped for.
       Shaykh: Allah be praised.
       UBL: We were at (...inaudible...) when the event took 
place. We had notification since the previous Thursday that the 
event would take place that day. We had finished our work that 
day and had the radio on. It was 5:30 p.m. our time. I was 
sitting with Dr. Ahmad Abu-al-((Khair)). Immediately, we heard 
the news that a plane had hit the World Trade Center. We turned 
the radio station to the news from Washington. The news 
continued and no mention of the attack until the end. At the end 
of the newscast, they reported that a plane just hit the World 
Trade Center.
       Shaykh: Allah be praised.
       UBL: After a little while, they announced that another 
plane had hit the World Trade Center. The brothers who heard the 
news were overjoyed by it.
       Shaykh: I listened to the news and I was sitting. We 
didn t...we were not thinking about anything, and all of a 
sudden, Allah willing, we were talking about how come we didn t 
have anything, and all of a sudden the news came and everyone 
was overjoyed and everyone until the next day, in the morning, 
was talking about what was happening and we stayed until four 
o clock, listening to the news every time a little bit 
different, everyone was very joyous and saying  Allah is 
great,   Allah is great,   We are thankful to Allah,   Praise 
Allah.  And I was happy for the happiness of my brothers. That 
day the congratulations were coming on the phone non-stop. The 
mother was receiving phone calls continuously. Thank Allah. 
Allah is great, praise be to Allah. 
       (Quoting the verse from the Quran)
       Shaykh:  Fight them, Allah will torture them, with your 
hands, he will torture them. He will deceive them and he will 
give you victory. Allah will forgive the believers, he is 
knowledgeable about everything. 
       Shaykh: No doubt it is a clear victory. Allah has 
bestowed on us...honor on us...and he will give us blessing and 
more victory during this holy month of Ramadan. And this is what 
everyone is hoping for. Thank Allah America came out of its 
caves. We hit her the first hit and the next one will hit her 
with the hands of the believers, the good believers, the strong 
believers. By Allah it is a great work. Allah prepares for you a 
great reward for this work. I m sorry to speak in your presence, 
but it is just thoughts, just thoughts. By Allah, who there is 
no god but him. I live in happiness, happiness...I have not 
experienced, or felt, in a long time. I remember, the words of 
Al-Rabbani, he said they made a coalition against us in the 
winter with the infidels like the Turks, and others, and some 
other Arabs. And they surrounded us like the days...in the days 
of the prophet Muhammad. Exactly like what s happening right 
now. But he comforted his followers and said,  This is going to 
turn and hit them back.  And it is a mercy for us. And a 
blessing to us. And it will bring people back. Look how wise he 
was. And Allah will give him blessing. And the day will come 
when the symbols of Islam will rise up and it will be similar to 
the early days of Al-Mujahedeen and Al-Ansar (similar to the 
early years of Islam). And victory to those who follow Allah. 
Finally said, if it is the same, like the old days, such as Abu 
Bakr and Othman and Ali and others. In these days, in our times, 
that it will be the greatest jihad in the history of Islam and 
the resistance of the wicked people.
       Shaykh: By Allah my Shaykh. We congratulate you for the 
great work. Thank Allah.
       
       Tape ends here
       Second segment of Bin Laden s visit, shows up at the 
front of the tape
       UBL: Abdallah Azzam, Allah bless his soul, told me not to 
record anything (...inaudible...) so I thought that was a good 
omen, and Allah will bless us (...inaudible...). Abu-Al-Hasan Al-
((Masri)), who appeared on Al-Jazeera TV a couple of days ago 
and addressed the Americans saying:  If you are true men, come 
down here and face us.  (...inaudible...) He told me a year 
ago:  I saw in a dream, we were playing a soccer game against 
the Americans. When our team showed up in the field, they were 
all pilots!  He said:  So I wondered if that was a soccer game 
or a pilot game? Our players were pilots.  He (Abu-Al-Hasan) 
didn t know anything about the operation until he heard it on 
the radio. He said the game went on and we defeated them. That 
was a good omen for us.
       Shaykh: May Allah be blessed.
       Unidentified Man Off Camera: Abd Al Rahman Al-(Ghamri) 
said he saw a vision, before the operation, a plane crashed into 
a tall building. He knew nothing about it.
       Shaykh: May Allah be blessed!
       Sulayman ((Abu Guaith)): I was sitting with the Shaykh in 
a room, then I left to go toanother room where there was a TV 
set. The TV broadcasted the big event. The scene was showing an 
Egyptian family sitting in their living room, they exploded with 
joy. Do you know when there is a soccer game and your team wins, 
it was the same expression of joy. There was a subtitle that 
read:  In revenge for the children of Al Aqsa , Usama Bin Ladin 
executes an operation against America.  So I went back to the 
Shaykh (meaning UBL) who was sitting in a room with 50 to 60 
people. I tried to tell him about what I saw, but he made 
gesture with his hands, meaning:  I know, I know  
       UBL: He did not know about the operation. Not everybody 
knew (...inaudible...). Muhammad ((Atta)) from the Egyptian 
family (meaning the Al Qa ida Egyptian group), was in charge of 
the group. 
       Shaykh: A plane crashing into a tall building was out of 
anyone s imagination. This was a great job. He was one of the 
pious men in the organization. He became a martyr. Allah bless 
his soul.
       Shaykh (Referring to dreams and visions): The plane that 
he saw crashing into the building was seen before by more than 
one person. One of the good religious people has left everything 
and come here. He told me,  I saw a vision, I was in a huge 
plane, long and wide. I was carrying it on my shoulders and I 
walked from the road to the desert for half a kilometer. I was 
dragging the plane.  I listened to him and I prayed to Allah to 
help him. Another person told me that last year he saw, but I 
didn t understand and I told him I don t understand. He said,  I 
saw people who left for jihad...and they found themselves in New 
York...in Washington and New York.  I said,  What is this?  He 
told me the plane hit the building. That was last year. We 
haven t thought much about it. But, when the incidents happened 
he came to me and said,  Did you see...this is strange.  I have 
another man...my god...he said and swore by Allah that his wife 
had seen the incident a week earlier. She saw the plane crashing 
into a building...that was unbelievable, my god.
       UBL: The brothers, who conducted the operation, all they 
knew was that they have a martyrdom operation and we asked each 
of them to go to America but they didn t know anything about the 
operation, not even one letter. But they were trained and we did 
not reveal the operation to them until they are there and just 
before they boarded the planes.
       UBL: (...inaudible...) then he said: Those who were 
trained to fly didn t know the others. One group of people did 
not know the other group. (...inaudible...) (Someone in the 
crowd asks UBL to tell the Shaykh about the dream of ((Abu-
Da ud)).
       UBL: We were at a camp of one of the brother s guards in 
Qandahar. This brother belonged to the majority of the group. He 
came close and told me that he saw, in a dream, a tall building 
in America, and in the same dream he saw Mukhtar teaching them 
how to play karate. At that point, I was worried that maybe the 
secret would be revealed if everyone starts seeing it in their 
dream. So I closed the subject. I told him if he sees another 
dream, not to tell anybody, because people will be upset with 
him. (Another person s voice can be heard recounting his dream 
about two planes hitting a big building).
       UBL: They were overjoyed when the first plane hit the 
building, so I said to them: be patient.
       UBL: The difference between the first and the second 
plane hitting the towers was twenty minutes. And the difference 
between the first plane and the plane that hit the Pentagon was 
one hour.
       Shaykh: They (the Americans) were terrified thinking 
there was a coup.
       [Note: Ayman Al-Zawahri says first he commended UBL s 
awareness of what the media is saying. Then he says it was the 
first time for them (Americans) to feel danger coming at them.]
       UBL (reciting a poem):I witness that against the sharp 
blade 
       They always faced difficulties and stood together...
       When the darkness comes upon us and we are bit by a
       Sharp tooth, I say...
        Our homes are flooded with blood and the tyrant
       Is freely wandering in our homes ...
       And from the battlefield vanished
       The brightness of swords and the horses...
       And over weeping sounds now
       We hear the beats of drums and rhythm 
       They are storming his forts
       And shouting:  We will not stop our raids
       Until you free our lands ...
       Bin Laden visit footage complete. Footage of the visit to 
the helicopter site follows the poem.  
 
  

Good Morning, Smiley!
As I understand it, Sylvia is correct in saying that Allah is 
the same God as the God of Christians and Jews.  Here is 
something I found awhile ago that led me to the same conclusion.

"Muslims are respectful and considerate of other religions. They 
hold the "religions of the book" in particular veneration. The 
religions of the book are the religions which worship the one 
true God and follow His word as revealed by His prophets. This 
means the Jewish, Sabaean [Sheban], Christian and Muslim 
religions. A Muslim should venerate a Jewish synagogue or a 
Christian church as a holy place devoted to the worship of the 
one God of all these religions. When Farrakhan called Judaism 
a "gutter religion", he defamed Islam along with Judaism."

"In Islam, there is only one god, God (Allah). (Terms in 
parentheses are the Arabic words or names which are commonly 
used by Muslims). The Word of God has been presented to man by a 
succession of prophets, the greatest of whom are Abraham 
(Ibrahim), Moses (Musa), Jesus (Isa) and Mohammed (Muhammed). In 
the broadest sense, any person who sincerely says the Muslim 
declaration of faith (Shahada), "There is no god but God, and 
Muhammed is his prophet" (La ilaha illa Allah, Muhammad rasul 
Allah) is a Muslim." 

Here is the website, if you'd like to read more.  I found it 
comforting and enlightening.  

http://www.geocities.com/mikailtariq/

Thanks, you two!  Life is GOOD!  Thank God for the blessings of 
love and hope during times such as these.

Justice, I loved that post! I may have to borrow it for another 
board! LOL!

Congratulation, will pray for you. will be missin you. You are 
the only one who reply my msg. Probably it is boring or it hit 
the people involved, in their head.

My last msg. Do you believe in the tape which has just been 
release to the media by the US Defense department who had found 
it in an apartment in Jalabad

It is a propaganda tape from Osama. He knows that he is going to 
be finish so he just claim responsible and be a hero to all the 
muslim who think he did the right thing. He portray himself as 
someone sent by Allah to deliver the message to kill the non-
believers. All he side kick claim to have dreams of sept 11. 
Dreams is always mention in the Koran and Bible when GOD sent 
his message to his chosen messenger. Are they telling the Truth. 
A BIG NO. They are trying to tell the muslim world that they are 
messenger from Allah. Just imagine how many non educated, lack 
of information, naive and also over holy people will be taken in 
by such "acting".

Come on, CIA and FBi, stop showing the tape it will do more harm 
than good. You people should be more inteligence than that. You 
can show him admitting to Sept 11 but not the other. I believe, 
he also do not have any idea about sept 11 until it happen. I 
also believe that it is done by his group but not plan by him. 
He is just trying to gain credit and telling people who view the 
tape that he is Allah gift to the muslim world so if he is kill 
the stupid muslims who believe him will revenge and fight on 
for  his stupid cause.

Just ask yourself this questions, why does he want to video tape 
a meeting with the Saudi Shiek? Why this time? You can also see 
that it is stage. Has he ever been film in such details telling 
about his conquest?

So to everyone who view the tape, do not let propaganda get into 
your head.

Remember!!!! GOD teach us to love not to kill..

The brothers, who conducted the operation, all they 
knew was that they have a martyrdom operation and we asked each 
of them to go to America but they didn t know anything about the 
operation, not even one letter. 

       UBL: (...inaudible...) then he said: Those who were 
trained to fly didn t know the others. One group of people did 
not know the other group. 

"and the right hand will not know what the left hand is doing"

Dear Fact Finder,
You make excellent points.  Perhaps you are right.  I definitely 
now wonder about the tape's validity in looking at it from your 
viewpoint.

I don't the the CIA and FBI will stop showing though.  I think 
they want to use it to prove that we were right in going after 
bin Laden and Al-Quaeda.  I think that they believe it's 
important evidence needed to convince other Arab nations in 
order to stifle resistance.  Just an opinion, nothing I know for 
sure.

I appreciate your posts here, and I hope that you will continue 
even after I am gone.  I'm sure others here also feel that your 
viewpoints are useful.  Peace to you and yours.

i beg you to remove these sites..

Congratulations!I usually tell people,"I hope you get what you 
deserve",and then leave them to wonder what the hell I meant by 
THAT.(LOL!!)
 But I really do wish you the best,and I thank you for everything 
you've given here.I've learned a few things from you,and I'm a 
little sad,but I'm not gonna go into all that"mushy"stuff.
 You just never know,I may be down in Arkansas some day,and we'll 
pass each other on the street,and I'll think:"I wonder if that 
was Missin'?",and you'll think:"God,I hate it when creeps stare 
at me like that!"
 See?Everything works out in the end!

Was that from Revelations, Everyman?  I know I've seen it 
before, just can't remember where.

I was up all night listening to Art Bell on his East of the 
ROckies radio talk show and he was talking to some guy that was 
talking about how the SCUMBAGS may have the Ebola Aerosol attack 
on us soon.   Fuck this shit!  I get pissed off that our 
government was too busy to obsesses over Clinton getting his 
dick sucked, instead of all the shit that was brewing years 
ago.  I am a REPUBLIC,   I AM A REPUBLICAN MOTHER FUCKER.  I 
just ate a big fucken loaf of Italian bread with seeds from the 
local bakery with slabs of sweet butter and I only have crumbs 
left.  I was gonna save some for everyone but I am too fucken 
hungry.  I am on my second cup of coffee now goddammit.  

Hi Walter!  Please clear a few things up for me, the Walter that 
seems to be posting now is okay, but who was the REAL WALTER 
calling the WTC people that died, pigs, etc.  Can you clear that 
up for me a little bit?  

I am making chicken cutlet parmigiana tonight.  I need to lose 
twenty pounds.  WOnder if I will do it?  

Spy: SPY IS MISSING IN ACTION.  WHERE THE HELL ARE YOU? 

Eagle Eye:  You are the MAN.  Put down the cigarette now, the 
smoke is making my eyes burn.  

John:  What the dealio? You have grown on me dude.  Friends dont 
grow on trees, the grow on your back.

Missin:  Gentle hugs to you too.  Thanks for the tea, it is 
great, but now I am having coffee. 

Snake Eyes:  Hope your daughter is doing better.  My heart goes 
out to you and your family.

Alatti2:  Just where have you been little Miss?

UK Voices:  Dont bother fixing your rat teeth, I will just turn 
you upside down and use them for a nail file.

Father Guido:  You are a goddamned pervert.  You remember me of 
that prick, Father Kelly that tried to get sexual with me when I 
was a kid.

Radio Europe:  Your words are a comfort to me anytime and have 
been since day one when I was ranting about killing the little 
baby bin bastards and slitting their little throats from ear to 
ear.  Taliban are walking , talking, INCOMPLETE abortions.

Goddammit, hope I did not forget anybody.  Any anti USa or 
Taliban sympathizers, go fuck yourselves.

Everybody have a good fucken day.  Coffee it does a body good!

You may have a good point there, Fact Finder; I wonder though, 
if they had INTENDED the tape to be found--more likely it was 
left behind in haste.

I, too, was struck by the 'dreams' everyone was having.  Trying 
to impress & give themselves credibility?  Getting in 
OBL's 'good' graces?  I tend to think it was more that they were 
trying to impress; "Oh, yes, I'm one of Allah's chosen, too...I 
had a dream, too"

You know what impresses me, still is the smoke pouring out from 
the towers, seeming to form an EVIL face...purely the devil's 
work.  Pure EVIL.

(can evil be pure?)  utter, unadulterated EVIL.

Hey Justice U.S.A.!
I wanna know why you didn't offer me any of that bread! Dang 
it...we don't have good delis in Arkansas!

Try not to panic, hon.  The fear is doing much more damage than 
Ebola or Smallpox so far.  When it gets scary...just remember to 
BREATHE, ok?

And, re the diet?  Ummmm, I think the dinner you got planned is 
gonna blow it in a BIG way!  I'm dieting too.  I want to lose 5 
before I put on my wedding dress!  

Hugs to you!  I'll miss you!

I'm pretty sure it is...didn't look it up but remember reading 
it a long time ago.

"Time wounds all heels."

I was at some stage going to post to the board, that E-mail I 
mentioned to Snake~~Eyes but in the circumstances I'd rather we 
put it down to a simple misunderstanding and just leave it at 
that. It's of no consequence now. No offence was intended at the 
outset to either of you.

More importantly Missin', may I offer my congratulations on your 
forthcoming marriage, and best wishes for the future.

....and you certainly will be missed.  

Missin', CONGRATULATIONS!!!!  My family and I will pray for God's 
blessing on you and yours (all of them) at dinner tonight!
 
FYI - the verse Everyman quoted was from the Book of Matthew in 
the Bible.  It actually refers to giving alms (tithe, offerings) 
without any fanfare.  If you give to get the prais of men you 
have your reward but if you give privately then God will bless 
you mightily.

Matthew 6:1-4 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to 
be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which 
is in heaven.  Therefore when thou doest [thine] alms, do not 
sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the 
synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. 
Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.  But when thou 
doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:  
That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in 
secret himself shall reward thee openly.

I read your post concerning Allah, unfortunately I will not be 
able to respond today.  I will try to post it before you leave.

You folks dropped a bomb alright...a confusion bomb! Pretty 
unexpected I'll say. TheE.S.D. and YOU Spy!...working 
together!...then again the unexpected is totally inkeeping with 
this board....I think you'll agree.

the E.S.D: Just to repeat unless you didn't catch it in my prior 
post to you, thank you for all your efforts, your journalistic 
skills are Top Notch. Good luck in any future endeavors! You 
will of course...be missed.

Spy: You crafty devil you :). Jethro Tull had another 'mellow' 
hit with 'Living in the Past' if you'll recall..but then 
history's being made all the time. My personal philosophy is 
that the present and the future are really where it's at. 
Anyway...keep scanning...you're return will always be welcome. 

Hi Sweetie,  I am NOT leaving the board. lol.  just left for an 
hour or two.  The planes are flying low today and my two cups of 
coffee are making me into a jumping bean, but I like it.  
JUSTICE USA IS A WOMAN!  Yep, I am a foul mouthed, tough New 
Yorker chick that spews plenty of profanity.  lol.  Hey, guys 
fooled ya huh?  Anyway,  I gotta make my chicken cutlets 
parmesan and then I have to go and find UK VOICES so that I can 
turn him upside down and use his broken rat like teeth to file 
my toe nails!   Missin' have fun today!

Smiley, 
Thank you so much for your kind wishes, and your prayers.  I can 
always use those!  The way I understand the history of the 3 
related religions (same God) is that both originated with what 
you and I know as the Old Testament.  The sons of Abraham were 
the first division between what would become the children of 
Israel and the Arabs.  E.S.D. upped a great post about that.  
Then one of Abraham's sons...Isaac?...had two son's that further 
divided the region. Jacob of the Israelites, and Esau of the 
Palestinians.  When Christ was born, the Jews and the Christians 
separated faiths...we accept Christ as Messiah, they don't.  The 
Muslims were sort of still with the Christians at that 
point...they believe that Christ was a prophet.  Then, beyond 
the time of Christ came Mohammed...seen by the Muslims to be the 
last and most exalted of the prophets.  That's how I understand 
it anyway.  Hope that helps.

U.K. Citizen, I'd say all is forgiven, but I never saw anything 
to forgive.  I apologize if my defense of my good friend (cyber-
sister) ~snake-eyes~ was offensive to you.  I understand now 
that she might have posted something "vociferous" to U.K. Vices 
and put the wrong name?  In any case, I've considered you a 
welcome ally in all the time I've posted here.  And, Thank You 
also for the congrats.  I'm a very lucky woman...the good news 
is...he got lucky too!

Everyman, I've heard that one too!  Did you hear the new "Golden 
Rule"?  He who has the gold, makes the rules? LOL!

Justice U.S.A., I picked up on the fact that you're a woman a 
little while back when you were talking about the nice Jewish 
lady who gave you dresses.  I didn't say anything at the time, 
because I didn't know who else might have picked up on it. And, 
because I felt bad about outting ~snake-eyes~ gender.  It's 
perfectly ok with me for you to express yourself anyway you need 
to when living there gets a little overwhelming.  If I had a 
wish for you, it'd be that you could magically come visit me in 
the woods for a weekend, and that we could drink lots of coffee 
and make Creme Brulee'.  I think the peacefulness of my woods 
would heal you some.  I know they save my sanity.

I'm gonna miss all of you!

from   sATAN
TO: ZION FORCES ADVANCE AGAINST NEW YORK CITY 

Keep talking shit asshole, your days are numbered.
and SHUT the Fuck up!!!
all jewish will taste the fuckn consequiences soon.
ya mother fucker just keep dreaming about your target ya wanna 
achive it.
 


        I will simpely say ya r losers.
 


                   NEVER
                 NEVER 
                    NEVER
                 WIIL USA LET YA TO GET YOUR TARGETS.
                   LOVE USA
                   LOVE HITLLER

-----------------------------------------------------------------
     Well well, as much as I hate quoting others in my 
responses, I must say this one deserved it.
     I don't even know where to begin on what's wrong with 
this.  It was quite obviously written by a Neo-Nazi, and not a 
terribly educated one at that.  Note the erratic capitalization 
and punctuation, as well as the lack of any coherance or overall 
message...and christ, the Zion forces advancing on new york?  
What the hell is that?  
     This "person," and I use that term loosely in this case, 
has managed to forget that this attack was supposedly launched 
by the Taliban, and last time I checked, the Taliban was a small 
sect of Muslims, not Jews.  
     Even beyond that, though I may not have agreed with Hitler 
in any way, I do concede that he was an intelligent individual 
and this "person" is surely not worth his name.  
     He united a country in ruins, created a scapegoat out of 
the richest group of people and embarked on a campaign of 
extermination which made the common man feel like he was part of 
something.  Now ready?  Here's the real ingeneous part.  Even 
beyond the psychological aspects of his tactics, he also seized 
all the possessions of the captured jews, thus funding his party.
     Anyway, I'd like to say again that I don't agree with his 
tactics, but you've got to see the ingenuity.
     Anyway, back to the point.  I'm curious as to who "satan" 
is addressing in this post.  The way I see it, this is the 
perfect example of what I'd like to eliminate, were it my 
choice.  The mindless bigots.  Ahh well...until that day... have 
fun all of you.

Right after 9/11 this was place was hopping mad,  now three 
months later most everyone's comments are so nice and well 
thought out.  I am amazed and I also wonder if I'm allowed to 
rant on this board still?  It was a great way for me to release 
my anger.  I will try to think them out a bit more to keep up 
with new standards of the board lol.

In case you haven't guessed, I am still in the 7th grade.  Also 
Zac and myself are the same person.  If you actually think 
someone like me can score high on the SAT then why would I 
mispell words such as "ingeneous" and "reding" and have so many 
fragmented sentences.  Also, the SAT test is not given worldwide 
so there is no way for me to be "ranked" in the world in SAT 
scores.  I had you all so fooled.  What a bunch of dumbasses.  
The reason I will never go to college is because my family is so 
poor and I am not smart enough to get a grant or scholarship so 
you can kiss my ass.  I just have no friends and find it amusing 
to abuse you people.

u are one ignorant mother fucker...no one wants to read your 
stupid bullshit..keep your thoughts to yourself..i cant beleive 
u typed out that speach..u should go back to jackin off instead 
of sitting there giving humankind a bad name.

Read your post at work today about your new life. Congrats,
good things happen to good people. Crazys on this board, no
way! 
 Anyhoo, enjoy the woods, and I would guess there are some
lakes and rivers near by. (Bulls Shoals?) I know Arkansas and
Missouri have some great fishing spots and I"ll make it there
one day when I stop being the capitolist pig I am now. lol!
 Tight lines to you!

Bump . . . KLICK!!!!

As Missin' mentioned, I, and possibly others too noted the 
reference to dresses in one your posts. In these days where men 
are 'encouraged', shall we say, to show their so 
called 'feminine' side, as I still at least half assumed that 
you were male at that point, I thought to myself 'this 
feminisation was going just a little....TOO far!'

You got me laughing. Your thoughts and comments are always 
welcome...Madam:).  

Dear Ben,
I agree with you that Hitler was brilliant.  He is the perfect 
example of how a brilliant mind can be warped.  Also, I'll hope 
you change your mind. (I'm sure you'll be able to figure out 
what I mean by that.)

Tyler,
It's been 3 months, hon.  We all still have moments of 
anger...but, anyone who can keep up the level of anger that you 
saw here right after 9/11 for 3 months is probably psychotic.  
Feel free to rant as needed though, we all do.

veteran,
Which speech?  And, what kind of bug is that up your...oh 
nevermind.

Dear om/cf,
I've fished Bull Shoals, but it's on the opposite side of the 
state from where I'll be.  There are two good bass lakes 15 
minutes from the house I'll be living in, so I expect I'll get 
to go anytime I get the urge.

I also placed deposits on all 4 of the Everstart Central 
Division tournaments this week.  If I get to fish those, I'll be 
fishing the co-angler side at Sam Rayburn, Tx., Grand Lake of 
the Cherokees, OK., Red River at Shreveport, La., and Kentucky 
Lake., in addition to all the lakes I'll get to fish here in 
Arkansas in the BFL Arkie Division.  If ya happen to catch a 
fishing show on TV with a girl from Arkansas on it...it could be 
me!  There are only about 6 of us in the state that fish at this 
level, and only 3 or 4 that fish with the guys.

Maybe I'll get to go pro one of these days when I stop being a 
capitalist pig too, eh?  Thanks for the warm wishes...I'm really 
gonna miss you all.

Walter,
For the life of me, I just can't say Good-Bye to you just yet.
I do appreciate the warm wishes...and I'm ready to go.  But, not 
just yet.  Funny how a few weeks ago, I had you figured for a 
real freak.  But, then, I was pissed off at all the redneck 
bigots here when I first jumped in too.  Maybe we are a lot 
alike.  I've enjoyed reading your thoughts...now that I know 
which ones are yours! LOL  Keep an eye out for me on the bass 
trails...who knows, maybe I'll fish a tournament near you one of 
these days.  You probably won't have any trouble picking me out 
in a crowd since few of the anglers will be a 5'8" woman with 
short blondish hair from Arkansas...I like to think I still have 
a little of my military bearing too.  Okay, I gotta stop...

Dear U.K. Citizen,
I've just now received the message you sent to me via email to 
Allatit2d.  She sends her regards and apologies to everyone 
here, and hopes you'll all forgive her absence...3-d life gets 
hectic sometimes.

After reading the message, I can understand how you might have 
interpreted that post in that way...not knowing me.  On most of 
the boards I frequent, I've been posting for years, and have 
gotten to know the majority of the posters quite well.

When I saw your reference to my good friend, I assumed that she 
had said something in one of her posts that offended you.  I 
posted what I did in an attempt to give you some understanding 
of her...and of me, in order to make you feel MORE comfortable.  
But, as I now realize, my post had the opposite effect.  I 
suppose whoever said "The road to hell is paved with good 
intentions." knew what they were talking about.  Anyway, I 
apologize for the misunderstanding, and I'm very glad that you 
decided to come back and give us another chance.

What follows is a brief explanation of Islam.


The word "Islaam" means peace attained through submission ; to 
be at peace with yourself and your surroundings by submitting to 
God and obeying his commandments. This is a unique religion with 
a name which signifies a moral attitude and a way of life. 
Judaism takes its name from the tribe Juda, Christianity from 
Jesus Christ, Buddhism from Goutam Buddha and Hinduism from 
Indus River. However , those who accept Islaam and submit to God 
are not called "Muhammadans" after Muhammad (Peace and blessings 
of God be upon him) the last Prophet of God; they are called 
Muslims. 

Allaah is the Arabic word for "one God", the same as Eloh in 
Armaic. Allaah is not God of Muslims only. He is God of all 
creations, because He is their Creator and Sustainer. 

The word "Muslim" means one who submits to the will of God. This 
is done by declaring that "There is no God except one God and 
Muhammad (Peace and Blessings of God be upon him) is the 
messenger of God." In a broader sense, anyone who willingly 
submits to the will of God is a Muslim, thus all Prophets 
preceding the Prophet Muhammad( Peace and blessings of God be 
upon him) were Muslims. The Quraan specifically mentions Abraham 
who lived long before Moses and Christ that, "He was not a Jew 
or a Christian but a Muslim," because, he had submitted to the 
will of God. Thus there are Muslims who are not submitting at 
all to the will of God and there are Muslims who are doing their 
best to live an Islaamic life. One cannot judge Islaam by 
looking at those Muslims who have a Muslim name but in their 
actions, they are not living or behaving as Muslims. The state 
of being a Muslim depends upon the degree to which one is 
submitting to the will of God, in his beliefs and his actions. 

In brief, Muhammad ( Peace and blessings of God be upon him) was 
born in a noble tribe of Mekkah in Arabia in the year 570 CE. 
His ancestry goes back to Prophet Ishmael (Peace be upon him), 
son of Prophet Abraham (Peace be upon him). His father died 
before his birth and his mother died when he was six years old. 
He did not attend any formal school. He was raised first by a 
nurse as it was a custom in those days, then by his grandfather 
and then by his uncle. As a young man, he was known as a 
righteous person who used to meditate in a cave. At age 40, he 
was given the Prophethood by God through angel, Gabriel, who 
appeared to Him in the cave of Hira, in Mekkah. Subsequently, 
revelations were received by Prophet Muhammad (Peace and 
blessings of God be upon Him) for a period of 23 years. This 
book of revelations is called the Quraan. The Quraan has been 
preserved, unchanged, in its original form and confirms the 
truth in the Torah, the psalms and the Gospel. Quraan is the 
only scripture in existence today in its original Arabic text. 
All the earlier Divine Scriptures were entrusted by God to His 
messengers, to guard them and after the physical death of the 
Messengers, their followers were entrusted to guard them. 
However the followers failed in their duties therefore each 
subsequent Divine Scripture corrected the previous one. God has 
confirmed in the Holy Quraan firstly that this is His last and 
final revelation to mankind and secondly that He Himself will 
guard it till the Day of Judgment. 

Muslims do not worship Muhammad (Peace be upon Him) or any other 
Prophets. Muslims believe in all Prophets including Aadam, Noah, 
Abraham, David, Solomon, Moses, and Jesus. Muslims believe that 
Muhammad (Peace and blessings of God be upon him) was the last 
of the Prophets. They believe that only God is to be worshipped, 
not human beings or anything else. 

Muslims think highly of Jesus (Peace be upon him) and his worthy 
mother, Mary. The Quraan tells us that Jesus was born of a 
miraculous birth without a father. "Lo! The likeliness of Jesus 
with Allaah is the likeliness of Aadam. He created him of dust, 
and then he said unto him: Be and he is" (Quran 3,59). He was 
given many miracles as a Prophet. These include speaking soon 
after birth in defense of his mother's piety. God's other gift 
to him included healing the blind and the sick, reviving the 
dead, making a live bird out of clay and most importantly, the 
message he was carrying. These miracles were given to him by God 
to establish him as a Prophet. According to the Quraan, he was 
not crucified but raised bodily into Heaven. (Quraan, Chapter 
Maryam) 

The purpose of worship in Islaam is to make the person God 
conscious. Thus the worship, whether it is prayer, fasting, or 
charity, is a means to an end and the end is to seek the 
pleasure of God by becoming God Conscious in thought and in 
action. Thus the God conscious is better placed to receive His 
bounties both in this world and in the Hereafter. 

God is just and therefore, in order to exercise His justice, He 
has created a system of accountability. Those who do good are 
rewarded in Paradise and those who do wrong are punished in 
Hell. Therefore, Muslims believe that the present life is a 
temporary one. It is a test and if we pass the test, we will be 
given a life of permanent pleasure in the company of good people 
in Paradise. 

The Quraan clearly states that, "Anyone who has an atom's worth 
of goodness will also see it." By that it is meant that those 
who do not believe but have done good, they will be rewarded in 
this world for their good deeds. On the other hand, those who do 
good and have correct beliefs like Muslims, will be rewarded not 
only in this world but also in the world Hereafter. However, the 
final judgment is up to God Himself. (Quraan 2:62) 

Islaam emphasizes modesty. No person is allowed to be perceived 
as a sex object. Guidelines both for men and women are that 
their dress should not either be too thin nor too tight to 
reveal body forms. Men, must cover the area from the knee to the 
navel and women, should cover all areas except hands and the 
face. 

Muslims are told in the Quraan not to eat pork or pork products, 
dead animals or the meat of the carnivorous animals (as they eat 
dead animals), or drink intoxicants such as wine or use any drug 
products. 

As opposed to Christianity, there is no concept 
of "Fundamentalism" in Islaam. The western media has coined this 
term to brand those Muslims who wish to return to the basic 
fundamental principles if Islaam and mold their lives 
accordingly. Islaam is a religion of moderation and a practicing 
Muslim can neither be a fanatic nor an extremist. 

'Eed-ul-Fitr marks the end of fasting in the month of Ramadaan 
and is celebrated with public prayers, feasts and exchange of 
gifts. 'Eed-ul- Adhaa marks the end of the Hajj, the annual 
pilgrimage to Mekkah. After the public prayer, those who can 
afford, sacrifice a lamb, goat, cow or camel to signify Prophet 
Abraham's obedience to God, shown by his readiness to sacrifice 
his own son Ishmael. 

Shari'ah is the comprehensive Muslim law derived from two 
sources: (a) the Quraan (2) the Sunnah or practices of Prophet 
Muhammad (Peace and blessings of God be upon him). It covers 
every aspect of daily individual and collective living. The 
purpose of Islaamic laws is to protect individual's basic human 
rights to include right to life, property, political and 
religious freedom and safeguarding the rights of women and 
minorities. The low crime rate in Muslim societies is due to the 
application of the Islaamic penal laws. These however can only 
be applied in a society which has established all other Islaamic 
laws to ensure justice and protection of each other's rights. 

According to the Quraan, "There is no compulsion in 
religion"(2:256), thus, no one can be forced to become a Muslim. 
While it is true in many places where Muslim armies went to 
liberate people or the land, they did carry the sword as that 
was the weapon used at that time. However, Islaam did not spread 
by the sword. In many places where there are Muslims now, in the 
Far East like Indonesia, in China, and many parts of Africa, 
there are no records of any Muslim armies having gone there. To 
say that Islaam was spread by the sword would be to say that 
Christianity was spread by guns, F-16's and atomic bombs, etc., 
which is not true. Christianity was spread by the missionary 
work of Christians. Ten-percent of all Arabs are Christians. 
The "Sword of Islaam" could not covert all the non-Muslim 
minorities in Muslim countries. In India, where Muslims ruled 
for 700 years, they are still a minority. In the USA, Islaam is 
the fastest growing religion and has 6 million followers and no 
sword is around. 

Islaam is a religion of peace and submission and stresses the 
sanctity of human life. A verse in the Quran says (Chapter 5, 
verse 32), that anyone who saves one life, it is as if he has 
saved the whole of mankind and anyone who has killed another 
person except (in lieu of murder or mischief on earth), it is as 
if he has killed the whole mankind." Islaam condemns all 
violence which happened in the Crusades, in Spain, in the 2nd 
world war, or by acts of people like the Rev. Jim Jones, David 
Koresh, Dr. Baruch Goldstein, or the atrocities committed in 
Bosnia by the Christian Serbs. Anyone who resorts to violence is 
not practicing his religion at that time. However, sometimes 
violence is a human response of oppressed people as in 
Palestine. There is a lot of terrorism and violence in areas 
where there is no Muslim presence. For example, in Ireland, 
South Africa, Latin America, and Sri Lanka. Sometimes violence 
is due to a struggle between those who have and those who do not 
have, or between those who are oppressed with those who are 
oppressors. Unfortunately, the Palestinians who are struggling 
against oppression are called terrorists but not the armed 
Israeli settlers when they do the same. As it turned out in the 
Oklahoma City bombing, sometime Muslims are prematurely blamed 
even if the terrorism is committed by non-Muslims. God does 
permit defensive wars against organized oppression. Sometimes 
some misguided Muslims turn to violence as happens with all 
religions and countries of the world. To call all Muslims 
terrorists is completely false. Islaam is a religion of peace, 
harmony and submission to the laws of God Almighty. 

The word "Jihaad " means "Struggle", or to be specific, striving 
in the cause of God. Any struggle done in day-to-day life to 
please God is considered Jihaad. One of the highest levels of 
Jihaad is to stand up to a tyrant and speak a word of truth. 
Control of the self from wrong doings is the greatest Jihaad. 
One of the forms of Jihaad is to take arms in defense of Islaam 
or a Muslim country when Islaam is attacked. This kind of Jihaad 
has to be declared by the religious leadership or by a Muslim 
head of state who is following the Quraan and Sunnah. 

For Muslim men to have more than one wife is a permission which 
is given to them in the Quraan provided it is not done to 
satisfy lust but to meet social solutions and needs. This 
permission is given provided the person is capable of treating 
the wives equally. It is not an injunction. In the pre-Islaamic 
period, men used to have many wives. One person had 11 wives and 
when he became Muslim, he asked the Prophet Muhammad (Peace and 
blessings of God be upon him) "What should I do with so many 
wives?" and he said, "Divorce all except four." The Quraan 
says, "you can only marry 2 or 3 and up to 4 women if you can be 
equally just with each of them." Since it is very difficult to 
be equally just with all wives, in practice, most of the Muslim 
men do not have more than one wife. Prophet Muhammad (Peace and 
blessings of God be upon him) himself from age 24 to 50 was 
married to only one woman, Khadeejah (May Allaah be pleased with 
her). In the western society, some men who have one wife have 
many extra marital affairs. A survey was published in "U.S.A. 
Today" (April 4, 1988, Section D) which asked 4700 mistresses 
what they would like their status to be. They said that "they 
preferred being the second wife rather than the "other woman" 
because they do not have the legal rights, nor did they have the 
financial equality of the legally married wives, and it appeared 
that they were being used by these men." Historically, all the 
prophets except Jesus, who was not married, had more than one 
wife. So this is not something which Islaam has started; in 
fact, Islaam regulated it. 

Islaam elevated the status of women 1,400 years ago by giving 
them the right to divorce, the right to have financial 
independence and support and the right to be identified as 
dignified women (Hijab) when in the rest of the world, including 
Europe, women had no such rights. Women are equal to men in all 
acts of piety (Quraan 33:32). Islaam allows women to keep their 
maiden name even after marriage, their earned money and spend it 
as they wish, and instructs men to be their protectors as women 
on the street can be molested. Prophet Muhammad (Peace and 
blessings of God be upon him) told Muslim men, "The best among 
you is the one who is best to his family". Some Muslim men, do 
oppress women today. This is because of their cultural habits or 
their ignorance about their religion. Female Genital Mutilations 
has nothing to do with Islaam. It is pre Islamic African Custom, 
practiced by non Muslims including Coptic Christians as well. 

Islaam recognizes the rights of the minority. They are not 
required to do army service. To ensure their welfare and safety, 
Muslim rulers initiated a tax (JAZIA) on them. Prophet Muhammad 
(Peace and blessings of God be upon him) forbade Muslim armies 
to destroy churches and synagogues. Caliph' Umar did not even 
allow them to pray inside a church. Jews were welcomed and 
flourished in Muslim Spain when they were persecuted in the rest 
of Europe. They consider that part of their history as the 
golden era. In Muslim countries, Christians live in prosperity, 
hold government positions and attend their church. Christian 
missionaries are allowed to establish and operate their schools 
and hospitals. However, the same religious tolerance is not 
always available to Muslim minorities as seen in the past during 
the Spanish inquisition and the Crusades, or as seen now by the 
events in the former Yugoslavia, Israel and India. Muslims do 
recognize that sometimes the actions of a ruler does not reflect 
the teachings of his religion. 

Islaam does not approve of intimate mixing or informality 
between the sexes, and forbids premarital or extramarital sex. 
Islaam encourages marriage as a shield to such temptations and 
as a means of having mutual love, mercy and peace. 

Islaam considers abortion as murder and does not permit it 
except to save the mother's life. 

Islaam categorically opposes homosexuality and considers it a 
sin. However, Muslim physicians are advised to care for AIDS 
patients with compassion just as they would for other patients. 

Islaam is opposed to both suicide and euthanasia. Muslims do not 
believe in heroic measures to artificially prolong the life of a 
terminally ill patient. 

Islaam stresses upon saving lives (Quran 5:32), thus, 
transplantation in general would be considered permissible 
provided a donor consent is available. The sale of the organ is 
not allowed. 

The Quraan calls the Jews and the Christians the "People of the 
Book ",i.e., those who received Divine scriptures before the 
advent of Muhammad (Peace and blessings of God be upon him) 
Muslims are told to treat them with respect and justice and not 
fight with them unless they initiate hostilities or ridicule 
their faith. Muslim's ultimate hope is that they all will join 
them in worshipping One God and submit to His will. "Say (O 
Muhammad ) (Peace and blessings of God be upon him) O people of 
the Book (Jews and Christians) come to an agreement between us 
and you that we shall worship none but Allaah, and that we shall 
take no partners unto Him, and none of us shall take others for 
Lords beside Allaah, and if they turn away, then say: Bear 
witness that we are those who have surrendered (unto Him)." 
(Quraan 3:64) 

In the Old Testament, Genesis, 21:21 it is said: 'He (Prophet 
Ismaaeel) dwelt in the Wilderness of Paran; and his Mother took 
a wife for him from the land of Egypt.' Psalm 83: 4-6 talks 
about the enemies of among others Ishmaelites, and Hagrites 
(Hagar being the mother of Prophet Ismaaeel). Psalm 84: 4-6 "4- 
Blessed are those who dwell in your House; They will still be 
praising You. 5- Blessed is the man whose strength is in You, 
whose heart is set on the pilgrimage. 6- As they pass through 
the valley of Baca. They make it a spring; The rain also covers 
it with pools." 

There are several interesting points in the above verses. The 
name Baca could be Hebrew whereas the word Mecca is Arabic. 
Added to this the fact that there is a designated House of God 
built by Abraham peace be upon him in Mecca where yearly 
pilgrimage was performed from the time of Abraham and Ismaaeel 
peace be upon them both, even to this day. The valley of Baca 
could indeed be the same as the valley of Mecca. The above 
verses seem to place Hagar, Ismaaeel and their children in the 
valley of Mecca where Prophet Muhammad, (Peace and Blessing of 
God be upon him), was born.

Isaiah, 21:12-17 mentions 12 . . . In the forest in Arabia you 
will lodge . . . 15 For they fled from the swords , from the 
drawn sword, from the bent bow, and from the distress of war. 
(Probable connection with the enemies mentioned in Psalm 83: 4-6 
quoted above; also settlement in Arabia is confirmed; the verse 
16 which follows, also confirms these verses are about 
Ismaeelites, Kedar being the 2nd son of Prophet Ismaaeel). 16 
For thus the Lord . . . all the glory of Kedar will fall; 17 and 
the remainder . . . people of Kedar will be diminished . . .

Isaiah 42:1-13 These are very moving verses about 'God's elect 
servant' who will bring forth justice to the Gentiles. A point 
worth noting is that Gentiles are the non Jews and it was 
confirmed by Jesus peace be upon him that he was sent to the 
Jews. Moreover Muhammad peace and blessings of God be upon him 
is consistently named by God as Mustafaa which means 'elected' 
and 'Abd' which means 'servant'. Prophet Muhammad always 
referred to himself consistently as the 'servant of God'. The 
above verses cannot be about Jesus peace be upon him as many 
Christians believe, for at least two reasons. Firstly, the 
Christians and the Catholics describe him as the son of God and 
not the servant of God; whereas Prophet Muhammad is known 
exclusively as the Servant and the Messenger of God. Secondly, 
Jesus was sent exclusively to the Jews whereas Prophet Muhammad 
was sent among the Gentiles.

There are several citations in the Bible prophesying the coming 
of prophet Muhammad, (Peace and Blessing of God Be Upon Him). 
Isaiah 42: 4 says ' He will not fail nor be discouraged, till he 
has established justice in the earth; . . . The Ministry of 
Jesus peace be upon him lasted only three years and at the time 
of his departure from this world it could not be truthfully said 
that 'he established justice in the earth'. However, Prophet 
Muhammad, peace and blessings of God be upon him, preached for 
23 years and most certainly 'established justice in the earth' 
before he departed from the earth. It is therefore reasonable to 
conclude that verses 1-13 refer to the coming of Prophet 
Muhammad, peace and blessings of God be upon him. 

Deuteronomy 18:18 "I will raise for them a Prophet like you 
(Moses) from among their brethren and will put My words in his 
mouth, and he shall speak unto them, all that I command him".

Let me make some comments about the above: Christians believe 
that this is a reference to Jesus peace be upon him. One 
important word here is "Prophet". Christians believe Jesus is 
the son of God not a prophet of God. Another important word 
is "brethren". If it were Jesus the word would have 
been "children" because Jesus peace be upon him came from the 
children of Isaac. Since Ismaaeel peace be upon him was the 
brother of Isaac peace be upon him, the reference is therefore 
to the children of Prophet Ismaaeel peace be upon him who will 
be brethren to the children of Isaac peace be upon him. Again 
the only Prophet from the brethren of the Jews and the 
Christians was Prophet Muhammad peace and blessings of God be 
upon him. 

The next important phrase is "Like you ( Moses)". Even a cursory 
comparison will show us that Jesus peace be upon him was very 
unlike Prophet Moses peace be upon him. Prophet Moses' birth was 
natural whereas the birth of Jesus was miraculous without a 
father, to a virgin, peace be upon her. Prophet Moses married 
and had children, Jesus did not marry and of course did not have 
any children. The ministry of Jesus peace be upon him lasted 
three years and did not see the laws of God establish in his 
time. Prophet Moses peace be upon him, preached the law of God 
for many decades and saw in his time, the law of God 
established. Comparing Prophet Moses peace be upon him, with 
Prophet Muhammad peace and blessings of God be upon him, brings 
out an amazing similarity. Muhammad's birth was natural, he was 
married and had children; preached the law of God for 23 years 
and saw in his own time God's Law established in his land. 

The phrase: "I will put My words in his mouth", takes on great 
significance because Prophet Muhammad peace and blessings of God 
be upon him, was unlettered; he did not know how to read or 
write. Normally God would put the message in the Prophet's mind. 
In this case attention is drawn towards "words" being put into 
the "mouth". Prophet Muhammad's sayings as well as eye witness 
accounts describe his receiving the verses of the Holy Quraan, 
and his tongue moving with the words being put in his mouth.

Turning to the New Testament, let us look at John 14: 15-16. It 
says: "14- If you love Me, keep My commandments. 16- And I will 
pray the Father, and He will give you another "comforter" 
(Helper in other versions), that he may abide with you forever". 
Also John 15: 26-27, John 16: 5-8 and John 16 12-14.

Jesus peace be upon him, spoke the Gospel in his native language 
which is Aramaic. The earliest translations were in Greek. It is 
very very interesting that the Greek word which was eventually 
translated into English as "Comforter" (Helper) is "Parqaleeta" 
and the meaning of this word is "one whom people praise 
exceedingly". It does not mean "the Holy Ghost" which is what we 
are told the so called "Comforter" means. I do not have the 
slightest clue as to how this meaning was given to the word 
Parqaleeta. What is even more fascinating is the fact that the 
name Muhammad has exactly the same meaning as Parqaleeta "one 
whom people praise exceedingly"! One of my friends wrote very 
beautifully in his book about the meaning of the word 
Muhammad: 'The most praised one. He is praised upon earth and in 
the heavens, from the beginning to the end, by men jinn and 
angels, rocks and trees and animals, by prophets before him 
since Adam, by saints until Doomsday. As all of this cannot give 
him due praise, we beg God to praise him. He is the only One who 
truly knows the value and the mystery of His Muhammad and He is 
the only One who can truly praise him'. The celestial name of 
Prophet Muhammad peace and blessings of God be upon him is 
Ahmad. I will quote from the Holy Quraan about the connection of 
Prophet Muhammad with the Bible as follows: 

Chapter 61

5 "And remember Moses said to his people: "O my people! why do 
ye vex and insult me though ye know that I am the apostle of 
Allaah (sent) to you?" Then when they went wrong Allaah let 
their hearts go wrong: for Allaah guides not those who are 
rebellious transgressors. 


6 And remember Jesus the son of Mary said: "O Children of 
Israel! I am the Prophet of Allaah (sent) to you confirming the 
Law (which came) before me and giving glad Tidings of a Prophet 
to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad." But when he came 
to them with Clear Signs they said "This is evident sorcery!" 

Allaah is one of the 100 names of the One and only God. Allaah 
is the name of His Essence while the other 99 are the names of 
His Attributes.

As for "abide with you forever" since Prophet Muhammad is the 
final Prophet and the Holy Quraan the final Testament and 
Revelation from God, his teachings which are more or less the 
same as of all the other Prophets and Messengers of God, Divine 
teachings of God, he will abide in his teachings forever.

The Holy Quraan which muslims believe is the Last Revelation 
from the One and only God, sent to humanity for its guidance, 
through the last Prophet and Messenger of God, Muhammad, peace 
and blessings of God be upon him, does state that there is an 
eternal hell. Those who were the True believers of each prophet 
and messenger and followed the book that he brought before it 
was corrupted and changed, will be awarded Paradise and those 
who disbelieved in each prophet and messenger of God and 
rejected his book, will be consigned by God to the hell where 
they will remain eternally. Those who believed in the book and 
the messenger / prophet before it was corrupted and changed, but 
did not fully obey its commands, will spend an appropriate time 
of punishment in the hell, after which they will be sent to 
paradise. The last Revelation from God, the Holy Quraan and the 
last Messenger Muhammad, peace and blessings of God be upon him, 
were sent because the Gospel sent through Jesus, peace of God be 
upon him, was changed and corrupted and Oneness of God Almighty 
and His Divinity which He does not share with His creation was 
changed into the concept of trinity and divinity of Jesus. 
Moreover God does create but is far above the blasphemous belief 
that He has a begotten son or begets children. The Holy Quraan 
was therefore sent to humanity to correct these changes and to 
bring us all back to His Oneness and His correct Guidance. Those 
who believe in the corrupted Bible and its in changes and reject 
the Holy Quraan and the last Messenger of God, Muhammad, peace 
and blessings of God be upon him, will be sent to the hell where 
they will remain eternally just as the Jews who rejected Prophet 
and Messenger Jesus, who was sent at that time with the Gospel 
to correct the changes and corruptions in the Torah of Moses, 
peace of God be upon him.




-James
(A 30 y/o Caucasion Husband and Father of 2 From Oklahoma.

Universal Islamic Declaration of Human Rights

21 Dhul Qaidah 1401 19 September 1981

Contents

Foreword
Preamble 
I  Right to Life
II  Right to Freedom
III  Right to Equality and Prohibition Against Impermissible 
Discrimination
IV  Right to Justice
V  Right to Fair Trial
VI  Right to Protection Against Abuse of Power
VII  Right to Protection Against Torture
VIII Right to Protection of Honour and Reputation
IX  Right to Asylum
X  Rights of Minorities
XI  Right and Obligation to Participate in the Conduct and 
Management of Public Affairs
XII  Right to Freedom of Belief, Thought and Speech
XIII  Right to Freedom of Religion
XIV  Right to Free Association
XV  The Economic Order and the Rights Evolving Therefrom
XVI  Right to Protection of Property
XVII   Status and Dignity of Workers
XVIII   Right to Social Security
XIX  Right to Found a Family and Related Matters
XX  Rights of Married Women
XXI  Right to Education
XXII  Right of Privacy
XXIII  Right to Freedom of Movement and Residence
Explanatory Notes
Glossary of Arabic Terms
References


This is a declaration for mankind, a guidance and instruction to 
those who fear God.
   (Al Qur'an, Al-Imran 3:138)

Foreword

Islam gave to mankind an ideal code of human rights fourteen 
centuries ago. These rights aim at conferring honour and dignity 
on mankind and eliminating exploitation, oppression and 
injustice.

Human rights in Islam are firmly rooted in the belief that God, 
and God alone, is the Law Giver and the Source of all human 
rights. Due to their Divine origin, no ruler, government, 
assembly or authority can curtail or violate in any way the 
human rights conferred by God, nor can they be surrendered.

Human rights in Islam are an integral part of the overall 
Islamic order and it is obligatory on all Muslim governments and 
organs of society to implement them in letter and in spirit 
within the framework of that order.

It is unfortunate that human rights are being trampled upon with 
impunity in many countries of the world, including some Muslim 
countries. Such violations are a matter of serious concern and 
are arousing the conscience of more and more people throughout 
the world.

I sincerely hope that this Declaration of Human Rights will give 
a powerful impetus to the Muslim peoples to stand firm and 
defend resolutely and courageously the rights conferred on them 
by God.

This Declaration of Human Rights is the second fundamental 
document proclaimed by the Islamic Council to mark the beginning 
of the 15th Century of the Islamic era, the first being the 
Universal Islamic Declaration announced at the International 
Conference on The Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon 
him) and his Message, held in London from 12 to 15 April 1980.

The Universal Islamic Declaration of Human Rights is based on 
the Qur'an and the Sunnah and has been compiled by eminent 
Muslim scholars, jurists and representatives of Islamic 
movements and thought. May God reward them all for their efforts 
and guide us along the right path.

 

Paris 21 Dhul Qaidah 1401 Salem Azzam
19th September 1981 Secretary General

 

O men! Behold, We have created you all out of a male and a 
female, and have made you into nations and tribes, so that you 
might come to know one another. Verily, the noblest of you in 
the sight of God is the one who is most deeply conscious of Him. 
Behold, God is all-knowing, all aware.
(Al Qur'an, Al-Hujurat 49:13)

 

Preamble

WHEREAS the age-old human aspiration for a just world order 
wherein people could live, develop and prosper in an environment 
free from fear, oppression, exploitation and deprivation, 
remains largely unfulfilled;

WHEREAS the Divine Mercy unto mankind reflected in its having 
been endowed with super-abundant economic sustenance is being 
wasted, or unfairly or unjustly withheld from the inhabitants of 
the earth;

WHEREAS Allah (God) has given mankind through His revelations in 
the Holy Qur'an and the Sunnah of His Blessed Prophet Muhammad 
an abiding legal and moral framework within which to establish 
and regulate human institutions and relationships;

WHEREAS the human rights decreed by the Divine Law aim at 
conferring dignity and honour on mankind and are designed to 
eliminate oppression and injustice;

WHEREAS by virtue of their Divine source and sanction these 
rights can neither be curtailed, abrogated or disregarded by 
authorities, assemblies or other institutions, nor can they be 
surrendered or alienated;

Therefore we, as Muslims, who believe

a) in God, the Beneficent and Merciful, the Creator, the 
Sustainer, the Sovereign, the sole Guide of mankind and the 
Source of all Law; 

b) in the Vicegerency (Khilafah) of man who has been created to 
fulfill the Will of God on earth; 

c) in the wisdom of Divine guidance brought by the Prophets, 
whose mission found its culmination in the final Divine message 
that was conveyed by the Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him) to 
all mankind; 

d) that rationality by itself without the light of revelation 
from God can neither be a sure guide in the affairs of mankind 
nor provide spiritual nourishment to the human soul, and, 
knowing that the teachings of Islam represent the quintessence 
of Divine guidance in its final and perfect form, feel duty-
bound to remind man of the high status and dignity bestowed on 
him by God; 

e) in inviting all mankind to the message of Islam; 

f) that by the terms of our primeval covenant with God our 
duties and obligations have priority over our rights, and that 
each one of us is under a bounden duty to spread the teachings 
of Islam by word, deed, and indeed in all gentle ways, and to 
make them effective not only in our individual lives but also in 
the society around us; 

g) in our obligation to establish an Islamic order:

i) wherein all human beings shall be equal and none shall enjoy 
a privilege or suffer a disadvantage or discrimination by reason 
of race, colour, sex, origin or language;

ii) wherein all human beings are born free;

iii) wherein slavery and forced labour are abhorred;

iv) wherein conditions shall be established such that the 
institution of family shall be preserved, protected and honoured 
as the basis of all social life; 

v) wherein the rulers and the ruled alike are subject to, and 
equal before, the Law;

vi) wherein obedience shall be rendered only to those commands 
that are in consonance with the Law;

vii) wherein all worldly power shall be considered as a sacred 
trust, to be exercised within the limits prescribed by the Law 
and in a manner approved by it, and with due regard for the 
priorities fixed by it;

viii) wherein all economic resources shall be treated as Divine 
blessings bestowed upon mankind, to be enjoyed by all in 
accordance with the rules and the values set out in the Qur an 
and the Sunnah;

ix) wherein all public affairs shall be determined and 
conducted, and the authority to administer them shall be 
exercised after mutual consultation (Shura) between the 
believers qualified to contribute to a decision which would 
accord well with the Law and the public good;

x) wherein everyone shall undertake obligations proportionate to 
his capacity and shall be held responsible pro rata for his 
deeds;

xi) wherein everyone shall, in case of an infringement of his 
rights, be assured of appropriate remedial measures in 
accordance with the Law;

xii) wherein no one shall be deprived of the rights assured to 
him by the Law except by its authority and to the extent 
permitted by it;

xiii) wherein every individual shall have the right to bring 
legal action against anyone who commits a crime against society 
as a whole or against any of its members; 

xiv) wherein every effort shall be made to

(a) secure unto mankind deliverance from every type of 
exploitation, injustice and oppression, 

(b) ensure to everyone security, dignity and liberty in terms 
set out and by methods approved and within the limits set by the 
Law;

Do hereby, as servants of Allah and as members of the Universal 
Brotherhood of Islam, at the beginning of the Fifteenth Century 
of the Islamic Era, affirm our commitment to uphold the 
following inviolable and inalienable human rights that we 
consider are enjoined by Islam.

I Right to Life

a) Human life is sacred and inviolable and every effort shall be 
made to protect it. In particular no one shall be exposed to 
injury or death, except under the authority of the Law.

b) Just as in life, so also after death, the sanctity of a 
person's body shall be inviolable. It is the obligation of 
believers to see that a deceased person's body is handled with 
due solemnity.

 

II Right to Freedom

a) Man is born free. No inroads shall be made on his right to 
liberty except under the authority and in due process of the Law.

b) Every individual and every people has the inalienable right 
to freedom in all its forms  physical, cultural, economic and 
political   and shall be entitled to struggle by all available 
means against any infringement or abrogation of this right; and 
every oppressed individual or people has a legitimate claim to 
the support of other individuals and/or peoples in such a 
struggle.

 

III Right to Equality and Prohibition Against Impermissible 
Discrimination

a) All persons are equal before the Law and are entitled to 
equal opportunities and protection of the Law. 

b) All persons shall be entitled to equal wage for equal work. 

c ) No person shall be denied the opportunity to work or be 
discriminated against in any manner or exposed to greater 
physical risk by reason of religious belief, colour, race, 
origin, sex or language.

 

IV Right to Justice

a) Every person has the right to be treated in accordance with 
the Law, and only in accordance with the Law.

b) Every person has not only the right but also the obligation 
to protest against injustice; to recourse to remedies provided 
by the Law in respect of any unwarranted personal injury or 
loss; to self-defence against any charges that are preferred 
against him and to obtain fair adjudication before an 
independent judicial tribunal in any dispute with public 
authorities or any other person.

c) It is the right and duty of every person to defend the rights 
of any other person and the community in general (Hisbah). 

d) No person shall be discriminated against while seeking to 
defend private and public rights.

e) It is the right and duty of every Muslim to refuse to obey 
any command which is contrary to the Law, no matter by whom it 
may be issued.

 

V Right to Fair Trial 

a) No person shall be adjudged guilty of an offence and made 
liable to punishment except after proof of his guilt before an 
independent judicial tribunal. 

b) No person shall be adjudged guilty except after a fair trial 
and after reasonable opportunity for defence has been provided 
to him. 

c) Punishment shall be awarded in accordance with the Law, in 
proportion to the seriousness of the offence and with due 
consideration of the circumstances under which it was committed.

d) No act shall be considered a crime unless it is stipulated as 
such in the clear wording of the Law.

e) Every individual is responsible for his actions. 
Responsibility for a crime cannot be vicariously extended to 
other members of his family or group, who are not otherwise 
directly or indirectly involved in the commission of the crime 
in question.

 

VI Right to Protection Against Abuse of Power

Every person has the right to protection against harassment by 
official agencies. He is not liable to account for himself 
except for making a defence to the charges made against him or 
where he is found in a situation wherein a question regarding 
suspicion of his involvement in a crime could be reasonably 
raised

 

VII Right to Protection Against Torture

No person shall be subjected to torture in mind or body, or 
degraded, or threatened with injury either to himself or to 
anyone related to or held dear by him, or forcibly made to 
confess to the commission of a crime, or forced to consent to an 
act which is injurious to his interests.

 

VIII Right to Protection of Honour and Reputation 

Every person has the right to protect his honour and reputation 
against calumnies, groundless charges or deliberate attempts at 
defamation and blackmail.

 

IX Right to Asylum 

a) Every persecuted or oppressed person has the right to seek 
refuge and asylum. This right is guaranteed to every human being 
irrespective of race, religion, colour and sex.

b) Al Masjid Al Haram (the sacred house of Allah) in Mecca is a 
sanctuary for all Muslims.

X Rights of Minorities

a) The Qur'anic principle "There is no compulsion in religion" 
shall govern the religious rights of non-Muslim minorities.

b) In a Muslim country religious minorities shall have the 
choice to be governed in respect of their civil and personal 
matters by Islamic Law, or by their own laws.

 

XI Right and Obligation to Participate in the Conduct and 
Management of Public Affairs

a) Subject to the Law, every individual in the community (Ummah) 
is entitled to assume public office.

b) Process of free consultation (Shura) is the basis of the 
administrative relationship between the government and the 
people. People also have the right to choose and remove their 
rulers in accordance with this principle.

 

XII Right to Freedom of Belief, Thought and Speech

a) Every person has the right to express his thoughts and 
beliefs so long as he remains within the limits prescribed by 
the Law. No one, however, is entitled to disseminate falsehood 
or to circulate reports which may outrage public decency, or to 
indulge in slander, innuendo or to cast defamatory aspersions on 
other persons. 

b) Pursuit of knowledge and search after truth is not only a 
right but a duty of every Muslim.

c) It is the right and duty of every Muslim to protest and 
strive (within the limits set out by the Law) against oppression 
even if it involves challenging the highest authority in the 
state. 

d) There shall be no bar on the dissemination of information 
provided it does not endanger the security of the society or the 
state and is confined within the limits imposed by the Law.

e) No one shall hold in contempt or ridicule the religious 
beliefs of others or incite public hostility against them; 
respect for the religious feelings of others is obligatory on 
all Muslims.

 

XIII Right to Freedom of Religion

Every person has the right to freedom of conscience and worship 
in accordance with his religious beliefs.

 

XIV Right to Free Association

a) Every person is entitled to participate individually and 
collectively in the religious, social, cultural and political 
life of his community and to establish institutions and agencies 
meant to enjoin what is right (ma'roof) and to prevent what is 
wrong (munkar).

b) Every person is entitled to strive for the establishment of 
institutions whereunder an enjoyment of these rights would be 
made possible. Collectively, the community is obliged to 
establish conditions so as to allow its members full development 
of their personalities.

 

XV The Economic Order and the Rights Evolving Therefrom

a) In their economic pursuits, all persons are entitled to the 
full benefits of nature and all its resources. These are 
blessings bestowed by God for the benefit of mankind as a whole.

b) All human beings are entitled to earn their living according 
to the Law.

c) Every person is entitled to own property individually or in 
association with others. State ownership of certain economic 
resources in the public interest is legitimate.

d) The poor have the right to a prescribed share in the wealth 
of the rich, as fixed by Zakah, levied and collected in 
accordance with the Law.

e) All means of production shall be utilised in the interest of 
the community (Ummah) as a whole, and may not be neglected or 
misused.

f) In order to promote the development of a balanced economy and 
to protect society from exploitation, Islamic Law forbids 
monopolies, unreasonable restrictive trade practices, usury, the 
use of coercion in the making of contracts and the publication 
of misleading advertisements.

g) All economic activities are permitted provided they are not 
detrimental to the interests of the community(Ummah) and do not 
violate Islamic laws and values.

 

XVI Right to Protection of Property

No property may be expropriated except in the public interest 
and on payment of fair and adequate compensation.

 

XVII Status and Dignity of Workers

Islam honours work and the worker and enjoins Muslims not only 
to treat the worker justly but also generously. He is not only 
to be paid his earned wages promptly, but is also entitled to 
adequate rest and leisure.

XVIII Right to Social Security

Every person has the right to food, shelter, clothing, education 
and medical care consistent with the resources of the community. 
This obligation of the community extends in particular to all 
individuals who cannot take care of themselves due to some 
temporary or permanent disability.

 

XIX Right to Found a Family and Related Matters

a) Every person is entitled to marry, to found a family and to 
bring up children in conformity with his religion, traditions 
and culture. Every spouse is entitled to such rights and 
privileges and carries such obligations as are stipulated by the 
Law.

b) Each of the partners in a marriage is entitled to respect and 
consideration from the other.

c) Every husband is obligated to maintain his wife and children 
according to his means.

d) Every child has the right to be maintained and properly 
brought up by its parents, it being forbidden that children are 
made to work at an early age or that any burden is put on them 
which would arrest or harm their natural development.

e) If parents are for some reason unable to discharge their 
obligations towards a child it becomes the responsibility of the 
community to fulfill these obligations at public expense.

f) Every person is entitled to material support, as well as care 
and protection, from his family during his childhood, old age or 
incapacity. Parents are entitled to material support as well as 
care and protection from their children.

g) Motherhood is entitled to special respect, care and 
assistance on the part of the family and the public organs of 
the community (Ummah).

h) Within the family, men and women are to share in their 
obligations and responsibilities according to their sex, their 
natural endowments, talents and inclinations, bearing in mind 
their common responsibilities toward their progeny and their 
relatives.

i) No person may be married against his or her will, or lose or 
suffer dimunition of legal personality on account of marriage.

 

XX Rights of Married Women

Every married woman is entitled to:

a) live in the house in which her husband lives;

b) receive the means necessary for maintaining a standard of 
living which is not inferior to that of her spouse, and, in the 
event of divorce, receive during the statutory period of waiting 
(iddah) means of maintenance commensurate with her husband's 
resources, for herself as well as for the children she nurses or 
keeps, irrespective of her own financial status, earnings, or 
property that she may hold in her own rights;

c) seek and obtain dissolution of marriage (Khul'a) in 
accordance with the terms of the Law. This right is in addition 
to her right to seek divorce through the courts. 

d) inherit from her husband, her parents, her children and other 
relatives according to the Law;

e) strict confidentiality from her spouse, or ex-spouse if 
divorced, with regard to any information that he may have 
obtained about her, the disclosure of which could prove 
detrimental to her interests. A similar responsibility rests 
upon her in respect of her spouse or ex-spouse.

 

 

 

XXI Right to Education

a) Every person is entitled to receive education in accordance 
with his natural capabilities.

b) Every person is entitled to a free choice of profession and 
career and to the opportunity for the full development of his 
natural endowments.

 

XXII Right of Privacy

Every person is entitled to the protection of his privacy.

 

XXIII Right to Freedom of Movement and Residence

a) In view of the fact that the World of Islam is veritably 
Ummah Islamia, every Muslim shall have the right to freely move 
in and out of any Muslim country.

b) No one shall be forced to leave the country of his residence, 
or be arbitrarily deported therefrom without recourse to due 
process of Law.

Explanatory Notes

1 In the above formulation of Human Rights, unless the context 
provides otherwise:

a) the term 'person' refers to both the male and female sexes.

b) the term 'Law' denotes the Shari'ah, i.e. the totality of 
ordinances derived from the Qur'an and the Sunnah and any other 
laws that are deduced from these two sources by methods 
considered valid in Islamic jurisprudence.

2 Each one of the Human Rights enunciated in this declaration 
carries a corresponding duty.

3 In the exercise and enjoyment of the rights referred to above 
every person shall be subject only to such limitations as are 
enjoined by the Law for the purpose of securing the due 
recognition of, and respect for, the rights and the freedom of 
others and of meeting the just requirements of morality, public 
order and the general welfare of the Community (Ummah).

The Arabic text of this Declaration is the original.

 

Glossary of Arabic Terms

SUNNAH - The example or way of life of the Prophet (peace be 
upon him), embracing what he said, did or agreed to.

KHALIFAH - The vicegerency of man on earth or succession to the 
Prophet, transliterated into English as the Caliphate.

HISBAH- Public vigilance, an institution of the Islamic State 
enjoined to observe and facilitate the fulfillment of right 
norms of public behaviour. The "Hisbah" consists in public 
vigilance as well as an opportunity to private individuals to 
seek redress through it.

MA'ROOF - Good act.

MUNKAR - Reprehensible deed.

ZAKAH - The 'purifying' tax on wealth, one of the five pillars 
of Islam obligatory on Muslims.

'IDDAH - The waiting period of a widowed or divorced woman 
during which she is not to re-marry.

KHUL'A - Divorce a woman obtains at her own request.

UMMAH ISLAMIA - World Muslim community.

SHARI'AH - Islamic law.

 

 

References

Note: The Roman numerals refer to the topics in the text. The 
Arabic numerals refer to the Chapter and the Verse of the 
Qur'an, i.e. 5:32 means Chapter 5, Verse 32.

I      1 Qur'an Al-Maidah 5:32
        2    Hadith narrated by Muslim, Abu Daud,Tirmidhi, Nasai
        3    Hadith narrated by Bukhari

II 4    Hadith narrated by Bukhari, Muslim
        5    Sayings of Caliph Umar
        6    Qur'an As-Shura 42:41
        7    Qur'an Al-Hajj 22:41

III 8 From the Prophet's address
        9    Hadith narrated by Bukhari, Muslim, Abu Daud, 
Tirmidhi, Nasai
        10    From the address of Caliph Abu Bakr
        11    From the Prophet's farewell address
        12    Qur'an Al-Ahqaf 46:19
        13    Hadith narrated by Ahmad
        14    Qur'an Al-Mulk 67:15
        15    Qur'an Al-Zalzalah 99:7-8

IV     16    Qur'an An-Nisa 4:59
        17    Qur 'an Al-Maidah 5:49
        18    Qur'an An-Nisa 4:148
        19    Hadith narrated by Bukhari, Muslim, Tirmidhi
        20    Hadith narrated by Bukhari, Muslim
        2l    Hadith narrated by Muslim, Abu Daud, Tirmdhi, Nasai
        22    Hadith narrated by Bukhari, Muslim, Abu Daud, 
Tirmidhi, Nasai
        23    Hadith narrated by Abu Daud, Tirmidhi
        24    Hadith narrated by Bukhari, Muslim, Abu Daud, 
Tirmidhi, Nasai
        25    Hadith narrated by Bukhari

V     26    Hadith narrated by Bukhari, Muslim
        27    Qur'an Al-Isra 17:15
        28    Qur'an Al-Ahzab 33:5
        29    Qur'an Al-Hujurat 49:6
        30   Qur an An-Najm 53:28
        31    Qur an Al Baqarah 2:229
        32    Hadith narrated by Al Baihaki, Hakim
        33    Qur an Al-Isra 17:15
        34   Qur an At-Tur 52:21
        35    Qur'an Yusuf 12:79

VI    36    Qur'an Al Ahzab 33:58

VII    37    Hadith narrated by Bukhari, Muslim, Abu Daud, 
Tirmidhi, Nasai
        38    Hadith narrated by Ibn Majah

VIII    39    From the Prophet's farewell address
        40    Qur'an Al-Hujurat 49:12
        41    Qur'an Al-Hujurat 49:11

IX    42    Qur'an At-Tawba 9:6
        43    Qur'an Al-Imran 3:97
        44    Qur'an Al-Baqarah 2:125
        45    Qur'an Al-Hajj 22:25

X    46    Qur an Al Baqarah 2:256
        47    Qur'an Al-Maidah 5:42
        48    Qur'an Al-Maidah 5:43
        49    Qur'an Al-Maidah 5:47

XI    50    Qur'an As-Shura 42:38
        51    Hadith narated by Ahmad
        52    From the address of Caliph Abu Bakr

XII 53 Qur'an Al-Ahzab 33:60-61
      54    Qur'an Saba 34:46
      55    Hadith narrated by Tirmidhi, Nasai
        56    Qur'an An-Nisa 4:83
      57    Qur'an Al-Anam 6:108

XIII 58 Qur'an Al Kafirun 109:6

XIV 59 Qur'an Yusuf 12:108
        60    Qur'an Al-Imran 3:104
        61    Qur'an Al-Maidah 5:2
        62    Hadith narrated by Abu Daud, Tirmidhi,Nasai, Ibn 
Majah

XV 63 Qur'an Al-Maidah 5:120
        64 Qur'an Al-Jathiyah 45:13
        65 Qur'an Ash-Shuara 26:183
        66 Qur'an Al-Isra 17:20
        67 Qur'an Hud 11:6
        68 Qur'an Al-Mulk 67:15
        69 Qur'an An-Najm 53:48
        70 Qur'an Al-Hashr 59:9
        71 Qur'an Al-Maarij 70:24-25
        72 Sayings of Caliph Abu Bakr
        73 Hadith narrated by Bukhari, Muslim
        74 Hadith narrated by Muslim
        75 Hadith narrated by Muslim, Abu Daud,Tirmidhi, Nasai
        76    Hadith narrated by Bukhari, Muslim, Abu Daud, 
Tirmidhi, Nasai
        77    Qur'an Al-Mutaffifin 83:1-3
        78 Hadith narrated by Muslim
        79    Qur'an Al-Baqarah 2:275
        80    Hadith narrated by Bukhari, Muslim,Abu Daud, 
Tirmidhi, Nasai

XVI    81    Qur'an Al Baqarah 2:188
        82    Hadith narrated by Bukhari
        83    Hadith narrated by Muslim
        84    Hadith narrated by Muslim, Tirmidhi

XVII  85 Qur'an At-Tawbah 9:105
        86    Hadith narrated by Abu Yala  Majma Al Zawaid
        87    Hadith narrated by Ibn Majah
        88    Qur'an Al-Ahqaf 46:19
        89 Qur'an At-Tawbah 9:105
        90    Hadith narrated by Tabarani  Majma Al Zawaid
         91    Hadith narrated by Bukhari

XVIII 92 Qur'an Al-Ahzab 33:6

XIX 93 Qur'an An-Nisa 4:1
        94    Qur'an Al-Baqarah 2:228
        95    Hadith narrated by Bukhari, Muslim,Abu Daud, 
Tirmidhi, Nasai
        96    Qur'an Ar-Rum 30:21
        97 Qur'an At-Talaq 65:7
        98 Qur'an Al-Isra 17:24
        99 Hadith narrated by Bukhari, Muslim,Abu Daud, Tirmidhi
        100    Hadith narrated by Abu Daud
        101    Hadith narrated by Bukhari, Muslim
        102    Hadith narrated by Abu Daud, Tirmidhi
        103    Hadith narrated by Ahmad, Abu Daud    

XX 104 Qur'an At-Talaq 65:6
      105    Qur'an An-Nisa 4:34
      106    Qur'an At-Talaq 65:6
        107    Qur'an AtTalaq 65:6
        108    Qur'an Al-Baqarah 2:229
      109    Qur'an An-Nisa 4:12
      110    Qur'an Al-Baqarah 2:237

XXI 111 Qur'an Al-Isra 17:23-24
        112    Hadith narrated by Ibn Majah
        113    Qur'an Al-Imran 3:187
        114    From the Prophet's farewell address
        115    Hadith narrated by Bukhari, Muslim
        116    Hadith narrated by Bukhari, Muslim,Abu Daud, 
Tirmidhi

XXII    117 Hadith narrated by Muslim 
        118    Qur'an Al-Hujurat 49:12 
        119    Hadith narrated by Abu Daud, Tirmidhi

XXIII 120 Qur'an Al-Mulk 67:15 
            121     Qur'an Al-Anam 6:11 
            122     Qur'an An-Nisa 4:97 
            123     Qur'an Al-Baqarah 2:217 
            124     Qur'an Al-Hashr 59:9

Well well, imagine my surprise when I got online and after 
scanning from the bottom up through what seemed to be a large 
portion of the Koran, I came upon something posted in my name, 
but, of course, not by me.
     I respect that to a point, seeing as it probably took 
someone at least an inkling of a thought to come up with that.  
Oh yes, kudos for that one.  
     But, I don't take kindly to being lied to or about.  In 
fact, I'm quite bothered by that.  What kind of pathetic, 
motherfucking, ballsuck do you have to be to pull a lame fucking 
stunt like that?  
     See, the way I figure it, you just have way too much time 
on your hands, and no idea of who you're fucking with.  I rarely 
waste my time on threats, but if you ever met me, if I let you 
walk away you'd be limping away with your tail between your 
legs.  I could kill you ten different ways before you hit the 
ground, so, may I suggest that you not fuck around with me you 
intellectually inferior, inbred, pro-american, backwood, 
redneck, trailer trash, motherfucker.
     Then again I do see where you're coming from.  Hell, if I 
were you I'd want to be me too.  If you can't beat them, be 
them, huh?
     Anyway, how is it that anyone could confuse Zac and I?  We 
write completely differently, stylistically.  Hell, if having 
similar ideas makes you the same person, then all you 
motherfuckers are the same.
     I suppose I'll be less pissed off by tomorrow, and back to 
my old self, unless someone chooses to impersonate me again.  
Until then...

I'm really sorry,but I admit I hate you all and I came here cause 
I got caught having sex with another boy in my gym class.I didn't 
want to touch him down there,but he's a lot bigger than I 
am,an...an.and he MADE ME!And I told them..I told them all but 
they didn't believe me!....he made me do st..s..stuff with the 
soap too...but I didn't WANT TO!And now I have to take a lot of 
other tests now...and I hope I pass those....I swear I never 
wanted to do any of that stuff..........

Hi James, that was a lot of info to read at once. I very much 
enjoy learning more about Islaam. I am a follower of Jesus 
Christ, so I have trouble seeing some of the arguments 
about scripture predicting the coming of Muhammed. 
However, it is food for thought and I think that seeking God 
is never wrong. Those who seek will eventually find. 

You inspire me to become more of a scholar in the Bible - 
though I have read it all, it takes more than a cursory glance 
to comprehend it all. I pray your faith will save you from the 
evil of this world. I pray that for myself and all others as well. 
God bless you,
Noah

You have far to much time on your hands my freind, get a few
more wives. All that useless verbage and you still did not
answer Americas most burning questions reguarding the Muslim
good book. Such as, is it titled Quraan, Quran, Al Qur'an,  
Qur'an or Koran? And more importantly, are there really 6,666
sentances in the book?
 This war against fanatical Muslim terrorists is in its
infancy, if you look to the positive, after the attacks on
New York and Washington, there was relativly little backlash
against Muslims in the U.S. I was proud of the fact this 
country held on to its ideals and beliefs it was founded on
in the days and weeks and months afterward. You have the right
to express your self on this board (sure you might get reamed)
and thats what its about, the chance to express your views
without real punishment. 
 Having said all that, I believe the Kornholian is a bunch of
shit written by drunken men (or women), its confusing when 
they are all covered up in loose fitting cloths (at Hooters
its all so simple). America will be moving on after bin Laden
and his groupies are dead, so you may want to book a ticket to
say Iraq or Somalia quickly to be the Next American Taliban.
Hope not, but good luck and (peace be upon you).
 

Wow, you weren't lying!

I could kill you ten different ways before you hit the 
ground, so, may I suggest that you not fuck around with me 
you 
intellectually inferior, inbred, pro-american, backwood, 
redneck, trailer trash, motherfucker.

----
If I can die sequentially, ten different ways, I'd be one 
surprised soul! Tough guys make me laugh because it 
makes them mad when I don't care how badly they beat me 
to a pulp! Keep the entertainment comin!

I've been thinking about buying myself a trailer.Now what I need 
to know is.......exactly how many cars do I need to have up on 
blocks to qualify as"trailer trash"?And if I have cable,will I 
still qualify?Or is there something in the rules that says that I 
MUST have an antenna?And do I have to buy the"beer-drinkin"tee 
shirts?I'm confused.

Anyway, how is it that anyone could confuse Zac and I?  

In 
                   fact, I'm quite bothered by that.  What kind 
of pathetic, 
                motherfucking, ballsuck do you have to be to pull 
a lame fucking 
                                       stunt like that?  
                      See, the way I figure it, you just have way 
too much time 
                on your hands, and no idea of who you're fucking 
with.


BENNY!WE'RE ALL LAUGHING AT YOU!!!!!!
WE HAVE NO IDEA WHO WE'RE FUCKING WITH!!!!!Hahahahahaha!!!!!

Ben, whats your opinion on the tape released today. I didnt
get to see the whole thing. Smoking gun or a bunch of dirty
guys with bad beards hugging each other? Or, maybe all of the
above and a need to have a AK-47 to make up for a small penis
making it immpossible to pleasure 1 wife let alone 5.
 What ya think?

Ben,Mom saw what you and Dad were doing in the bathroom 
together.SHE SAW!

I am sorry.  I have been trying to control my anger.  You see my 
daddy gets drunk and beats me sometimes and I have to come 
online to vent my frustrations.  It is hard being in 7th grade 
and having no friends.  That is why I created Zac, my alter 
ego.  He is not as smart as I claim to be.  I made him that way 
so I could feel superior to him and boost my elitist attitude.  
When I get frustrated I actually think I can kill people whom I 
have no way of tracking down online.  I hate being lied to also 
because my mother lies to me all of the time when she tells me 
daddy is working late when I know he is really at the bars 
getting drunk again.  I still feel superior to all of you 
though.  So all of you can kiss my ass.

I think you are supposed to have one of those old style big ass 
antennas.  You know, the kind that is bigger than the trailer.  
I am pretty sure you just need one car on blocks in the front 
yard.  Make sure is has some rust on it though.  T-shirt is 
optional.  Beer gut mandatory.

Laughed my ass off at the last one! What happened to Tyler?
KIA?

Nobody saw anything cause I wasnt doin anything!He was just 
tellin me about some stuff OK?And nobody saw nothin because the 
door was locked,and we weren't doing NOTHING!And if it was 
true,he can show me stuff if he wants to because he's my Dad,but 
we didn't do ANYTHING!but TALK!And Im not you OK?We're 2 people 
and that means seperate,because if we were 1 person then it would 
be crazy,and Im not 
crazyIpasstestsIfuckinacedthemyoucantsaynothinyoufuckers
IPASSEDTESTSSOTHATMEANSIMSMARTERTHANYOU!Hewasshowinmesomestuffand
talkingYOU...IHATEALLOFYOU!!

Thanks for the information.I only hope Radio Shack still sells 
them!

I've got a GMC Jimmy on jackstands, off to the side, but still
on the driveway. No rust, waiting for a engine but still......
do I qualify?
 Those al-fuckups (the ones still living) sure must be getting
used to large explosions by now. 15,000 lb. bombs with a 100 
percent kill rate in an area the size of 5 football fields will
take their toll. I saw a report that we have used more explosive
power in ans near Tora Bora than Dresdan, Germany in WW2, like
twice as much 2 days ago.
 Ben, still waiting for your opinion on the now famous bin Lucky
tape!

You need to be patient and wait for the rust.  Throw some salt 
water on it.  It should speed up the process.  Also make sure 
you have some multi-colored aluminum framed lawn chairs out 
front.  Don't forget the blow up kiddie pool too.

BOYCOTT MUSLIM OWNED BUSINESSES!!!These people are cruel, 
viscious, Barbarians. We saw what they did on 9/11. That is just 
the beginning. Their religion is a cult and a political 
movement. They murder and rape men, women, and children. Do your 
part in saving America before its too late! Boycott any business 
that is owned by Muslims. Lets put these paracites out of 
business for good. Don't let these barbarians destroy America!

I actually used to work for a Muslim business owner so I know 
that you are just ignorant when you post things saying that all 
Muslim people are evil.  He is quite a peaceful person.  He has 
four kids and a wife and leads a very successful life.  I pity 
people like you.  You are the kind of people that give Americans 
a bad reputation.  You should try opening your mind to the world 
around you and try to experience different cultures.  Maybe then 
you won't be as ignorant as you seem to be.  Realize that the 
terrorists that toppled the WTC and crashed into the Pentagon 
were a small majority of the Muslim population.  Most are peace 
loving people that are just like everyone else. 

Hi Missin, hope you are stil around to read this. You say that 
we believe Jesus is the messiah and they(muslim) don't. You are 
wrong. Read On

AL-MASIH: THE MESSIAH IN THE QUR'AN.

Islam,accepts Jesus as a prophet like all the other prophets. In 
one passage he is joined with Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob and 
Moses as simply one of the prophets (an-nabiyyin) between whom 
no distinction of any kind is made (Surah 2.136). In another 
verse he is said to have been no more than a servant (abd Surah 
43.59) and in yet another as nothing more than a messenger 
(rasul - Surah 5.78). One would therefore expect to find the 
Qur'an denying that Jesus was the Messiah, especially as the 
Jews and Christians have always regarded the title as signifying 
more than prophethood and as Peter's testimony that Jesus was 
indeed the Messiah was intended to be in contrast with the 
opinion of the Jews that he was only one of the prophets sent by 
God.

It comes as a surprise, therefore, to find that the Qur'an 
openly admits that Jesus was the Messiah. He is often called in 
the Qur'an al-Masihu Isa - "the Messiah Jesus" (Surah 4.157, 
171). The title al-Masih ("the Messiah") sometimes appears by 
itself (Surah 4.172) and on other occasions he is called al-
Masihubnu Maryam ("the Messiah, son of Mary" - Surah 9.31), but 
on each of the eleven occasions where it appears the title al-
Masih - the Messiah - is applied specifically to Jesus alone. 
The Qur'an even goes so far as to say that right in the 
beginning, when the angel Gabriel first appeared to Mary he 
deliberately stated that the name of her son was to be al-Masihu 
Isa (Surah 3.45). Islam thus joins Christianity in declaring 
Jesus to be the long-awaited Messiah promised to the Jews 
through the prophets of old.

Nevertheless, as said before, the Qur'an's acknowledgement that 
Jesus was indeed the Messiah comes as a surprise. The promises 
of God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Moses, about the coming 
Messiah had made it plain that he would be far greater than a 
prophet. The Christian confession that Jesus is the Lord and 
Saviour of all men is thus consistent with the teachings of the 
former prophets that the coming Messiah would be the supreme man 
of history, far above all the prophets (2 Samuel 7.12-14). The 
Qur'an on the other hand, declares Maal-Masihubnu Maryama illa 
rasul - "the Messiah, son of Mary, was no more than an apostle" 
- like the other apostles who had passed away before him (Surah 
5.78). Why, then, does the Qur'an also acknowledge that Jesus 
was the Messiah if it denies that he was anything more than a 
prophet?

It is significant to discover that, while the Qur'an 
unreservedly applies the title al-Masih to Jesus, it attempts no 
explanation of it. This is all the more surprising in view of 
the Jewish and Christian belief that the title is reserved to 
the specially-chosen one of God, one man alone who stands above 
all other men, prophets and apostles included. The declaration 
that the Messiah was only an apostle appears to be self-
contradictory and the Qur'an's complete silence on the meaning 
of the title hardly serves to avoid this conclusion.

The Qur'an's suggestion that Jesus was only a prophet is not 
only clearly compromised by its own admission that he was indeed 
the Messiah, but the issue is intensified even further by the 
fact that it calls Jesus, without exception in every case where 
the title appears, al-Masih - the Messiah. The definite article 
positively distinguishes him from all the other prophets. Not 
only is no other prophet in the Qur'an called Messiah, but by 
describing Jesus as the Messiah, the Qur'an declares that the 
application of this title to anyone else would be quite 
inappropriate.

Not only does the Qur'an attempt no explanation of the meaning 
of this title but even great scholars in Muslim history like 
Zamakhshari and Baidawi admitted that it was not an original 
Arabic word. The average Muslim will be hard-pressed to venture 
a plausible explanation of this supreme title given to Jesus, al-
Masih, based on the use of the word in the Qur'an, and 
consistent with the claim that he was in no way different to the 
other prophets who went before him. It is therefore quite clear 
that we shall have to turn to the Bible if we are to find the 
true meaning of the title.

Cheers, you are right, not all muslim are evil. In fact, many of 
them are good people. I have friend who are muslims and they are 
very kind, generous people. I am waiting for their Ramadan 
celebration on the 16th of this month to celebrate with my 
muslim friends.

It is those, people who influence the innocence to create the 
terrible terrorist act. I would say a lot of the muslim fight 
the so call jihad are nice people too. They really do not know 
what they have done and what they are doing and what they are 
about to do.

So let us help our muslim friends by showing them our love and 
concern so that they may realize the truth about religion, be it 
Islam, christainity, Hinduism and etc. They have their own 
choice and as I said before, we can only show good example of 
our religion to attract the non believers and not by force which 
will frighten them away. Look what happen to Islam just because 
of some idiots. Some people think this religion preach terrorism.

Remember God word "Love one another as I have Love you"

Hi Ben, just read your last message, I don't care about what you 
say and if you want to scold me go ahead. So you and zac are the 
same person. I read your message with sadness in my heart, don't 
get me wrong. I really meant what I said.

 Do you love your parent. I bet you do but you are disappointed 
at what they are doing. Have you tried talking to your dad. No, 
you afraid he would bash you up again. Why not write him a note 
and leave it at the table for him to read. You can start by 
saying how much you love and care for him and do not want him to 
be drunk all the time. I can bet you that he would feel a pinch 
of your love in his heart. Trust me he may not response but your 
word will definitely stay in his heart.

As for your mum, she knows that you do not like your dad to 
drink because he hurt you emotionally and phsically when he is 
drunk, so as not to hurt you more your mum do not tell you the 
truth. I believe she feel the pain too.

Anyway, you do not know me and I do not know you. If you need 
listening ear, you can post it here or you prefer to email me. 
Let me know.

God Love You.

If the reports are true near Tora Bora, we all may get a tall,
nasty ugly, scraggly bearded Arab wrapped in a turbin for
Christmas!

Talib,
Thank you for your post.  I am still reading it, but I have come 
across a couple of points I feel I need to address.

First, you say that there is no "Fundamentalist" Islamic group.  
There have been many Muslims who have posted here that say that 
the Taliban and such terrorist groups do NOT represent the true 
faith of Islam.  I tend to agree with them.  What is your 
opinion of Farrakan here in the states?  The site that I 
referenced yesterday says that he and his followers aren't true 
Muslims because they worship/believe in other Gods.

Second, in reference to this
"Isaiah 42: 4 says ' He will not fail nor be discouraged, till 
he has established justice in the earth; . . . The Ministry of 
Jesus peace be upon him lasted only three years and at the time 
of his departure from this world it could not be truthfully said 
that 'he established justice in the earth'."

My initial thought is that Jesus DID establish justice in the 
earth.  God realized that man could not, by his very nature, 
live a sinless life.  Therefore, the only way to be just was to 
send his son to take our sins upon himself so that we might be 
acceptable to God.  

Third, in reference to this...
" The ministry of Jesus peace be upon him lasted 
three years and did not see the laws of God establish in his 
time."

With the coming of Christ, there was a New Covenant in which God 
promised to write his laws upon the heart of every man, so that 
every man might know him.  This he did by giving each of us the 
Holy Spirit to guide and teach us.  Some people call this 
conscience...I know it as God.  And, Jesus changed many of the 
laws of the time.  In Galatians...the prohibitions against pork 
and scaleless fish were withdrawn..."I have made all things 
clean."  The New Covenant is the very reason that I cannot 
accept Mohammed as a prophet who was sent after Christ to change 
the laws of God.  If God gave each of us the Holy Spirit to 
write his laws upon our hearts...what need would he have had of 
Mohammed?

And this...
"Turning to the New Testament, let us look at John 14: 15-16. It 
says: "14- If you love Me, keep My commandments. 16- And I will 
pray the Father, and He will give you another "comforter" 
(Helper in other versions), that he may abide with you forever". 
Also John 15: 26-27, John 16: 5-8 and John 16 12-14."

This contradicts what you just said about the ministry of Jesus 
NOT seeing God's law established in his time.  And, 
the "comforter" is the Holy Spirit...as promised in the Covenant.

I respect your right to believe as you choose.  I will take my 
chances on hell and follow Christ for as long as I live.  Thank 
you for your post, it WAS educational.

Prediction, 12/14/01 (Dawn after the new moon)

The next week will bring the message and results of the  Dark 
Cloud 
As you may know the Muslim Ramadan will end on Sunday. The 
coming winter solstice and Christmas will be the hardest time 
known to mankind. The inclusion if India and Israel s 
retaliation bring this war into a stage of biblical proportion.
  Usama Bin Laden is one of several involved in the plot. The 
ringleader is Saddam Hussein. The Traitor is a false prophet, 
telling half-truth. He is correct in his own mind.
The total of  sleepers  in the US will act in the next week. The 
act will deplete all that are left. They will come in the form 
of the horsemen of the apocalypse, martyrs, of walking death. 
Muslims will divide into factions, Few will be involved that are 
truly Muslim. Most Muslims will join in fight against evil.
 
   The prediction goes as follows;
>Distant Past, Geofu. (Love)The USA coming together in unity. 
Other countries join us in the fight against evil.
>Past present, Hagaz (influence) Survival and limited, 
restricted success. Working within the limits of survival. 
Dealing with the anthrax and results.
>Past future, Diag. (emergence) rising of the phoenix conquest 
over AlQueda and the army of Usama Bin Laden. Success in spirit 
realm stopping continued anthrax attack and defeating the first 
wave of jihad.  
   
>Present past, Ansus. (message) The prediction and warnings of 
coming  dark cloud 
>Present, Reversed Radaz (unwanted change) problems occurring, 
Need to be recognized as radical change in current situation. 
Need for insight, it is imposed change.
>Present future, Tyr reversed (infliction problem of our own 
demise or making) Attack against US and allies. I believe it 
will be biological and bombs or combination both here and 
elsewhere.

>Future past, Wyngo (joy) The attack will fail, we will secede 
in stopping most of the attack though not all, some will be out 
of our control
>Future present, Jara (change in direction, coming of new season 
and Karma) Retaliation of attack, Just cause and completion of 
cycle. 
>Future, distant future (Lagaz) Bending of the reed. Survival by 
grace. Seeing the tomorrow by flexing and  dodging the bullet  
serenity after the storm. The Mother influence and female 
aspect. 

Advise;
(Thorn)Defend against attack; be at the ready, we will succeed
(Segal) Health and strength, Immediate action.
(Ice) stop of all threat, follow through and connection. 

The result is good, but the damage is real. Fortunatly the 
terrorists are poor at what they do. Be ready. God bless. I will 
follow up on the 30th of December during the final rite and full 
moon of the millennium. 
                                Merlyn /|\ 

Fact Finder,
Thanks so much for your post.  My knowledge of Islam is still 
very limited, so I appreciate one such as you helping me 
understand.  I accepted a long time ago that some of what is 
written in the Bible was probably lost in the translations.  I 
think that all 3 of the books of God are filled with 
contradictions, if that's what a person is searching for.  In 
times of doubt, I trust that God will forgive my ignorance.

Oh, and the posts of "Ben" that you were responding to weren't 
written by Ben.  I appreciate your kindness to what you thought 
was his problem, but...

Prediction, 12/14/01 (Dawn after the new moon)

The next week will bring the message and results of the  Dark 
Cloud 
As you may know the Muslim Ramadan will end on Sunday. The 
coming winter solstice and Christmas will be the hardest time 
known to mankind. The inclusion if India and Israel s 
retaliation bring this war into a stage of biblical proportion.
  Usama Bin Laden is one of several involved in the plot. The 
ringleader is Saddam Hussein. The Traitor is a false prophet, 
telling half-truth. He is correct in his own mind.
The total of  sleepers  in the US will act in the next week. The 
act will deplete all that are left. They will come in the form 
of the horsemen of the apocalypse, martyrs, of walking death. 
   The prediction goes as follows;
>Distant Past, Geofu. (Love)The USA coming together in unity. 
Other countries join us in the fight against evil.
>Past present, Hagaz (influence) Survival and limited, 
restricted success. Working within the limits of survival. 
Dealing with the anthrax and results.
>Past future, Diag. (emergence) rising of the phoenix conquest 
over AlQueda and the army of Usama Bin Laden. Success in spirit 
realm stopping continued anthrax attack and defeating the first 
wave of jihad.  
   
>Present past, Ansus. (message) The prediction and warnings of 
coming  dark cloud 
>Present, Reversed Radaz (unwanted change) problems occurring, 
Need to be recognized as radical change in current situation. 
Need for insight, it is imposed change.
>Present future, Tyr reversed (infliction problem of our own 
demise or making) Attack against US and allies. I believe it 
will be biological and bombs or combination both here and 
elsewhere.

>Future past, Wyngo (joy) The attack will fail, we will secede 
in stopping most of the attack though not all, some will be out 
of our control
>Future present, Jara (change in direction, coming of new season 
and Karma) Retaliation of attack, Just cause and completion of 
cycle. 
>Future, distant future (Lagaz) Bending of the reed. Survival by 
grace. Seeing the tomorrow by flexing and  dodging the bullet  
serenity after the storm. The Mother influence and female 
aspect. 

Advise;
(Thorn)Defend against attack; be at the ready, we will succeed
(Segal) Health and strength, Immediate action.
(Ice) stop of all threat, follow through and connection. 

The result is good, but the damage is real. Be ready. God bless. 
I will follow up on the 30th of December during the final rite 
of the millennium. 
                                Merlyn /|\ 

You said -->  "Well well, imagine my surprise when I got online 
and after scanning from the bottom up..."

********

Well well, imagine that.  You read from the bottom up, out of 
context.  Just as you see the world -  From the bottom up, or 
back to front = Inside Out.

From the bottom up..?  What a true idiot Benji-boy is.

Ya see Benji-boy.  As you gain some experience maybe you'll see 
the world as not so darn complicated.  Most things truly are 
what they appear to be.  As is this war on terror.  That's just 
what it is, a war on terror...  Silly boy.

John
E...

Hey Walter,
We must have a better class of trailer trash here in 
Arkansas...they've all got satellite antennas now!  Even the 
dilapidated little houses that some of the welfare families live 
in have 'em.  Amazing, huh?

I think you could get away with only one car on blocks as long 
as you have about 50 bags of beer cans and other trash sitting 
on the back porch! LOL!

I am sorry.  I have been trying to control my anger.  You see my 
daddy gets drunk and beats me sometimes and I have to come 
online to vent my frustrations.  It is hard being in 7th grade 
and having no friends.  That is why I created Zac, my alter 
ego.  He is not as smart as I claim to be.  I made him that way 
so I could feel superior to him and boost my elitist attitude.  
When I get frustrated I actually think I can kill people whom I 
have no way of tracking down online.  I hate being lied to also 
because my mother lies to me all of the time when she tells me 
daddy is working late when I know he is really at the bars 
getting drunk again.  I still feel superior to all of you 
though.  So all of you can kiss my ass.

Keep yourself out of the Alcahole. Your alter ego is smarter 
than you realize. Once you stand up to your father, call 
yourself a man. You must find the ability within, fighting with 
your parents has no future. He will only listen whaen you tell 
him the cost of his anger. 
          Good luck

The"trailer trash"bit was from one of Ben's posts.We only have 
one trailer park in Omaha that qualifies as a trailer trash 
park.I don't even know the name of it.I've always called it 
Kool-Aid Heights,because there's always at least one kid running 
around in his underpants,with a shirt on that's too small,with a 
kool-aid stain straight down the front of it.Funny,but sad.I 
forgot about the beer can collection on the back porch though!
 I grew up very poor,and grew up seeing people upset because 
their cars were breaking down,their kids were badly dressed,and 
sometimes they didn't have enough to eat,but there was ALWAYS 
enough money for booze somehow.So it's hard for me to feel sorry 
for most of them.

We weren't wealthy when I was growing up, but I think we still 
had it better than my grandmother's family by a long shot.  Her 
Daddy was a sharecropper when people actually still lived that 
way their whole lives.  They had 7 kids, the kids never had toys 
of any kind, rarely had shoes, and sometimes didn't have enough 
to eat.  Just like you said though, that didn't keep great-
granddaddy from his booze.

I knew that your post was in response to Ben's.  I thought it 
was funny too.  My first house was a trailer...with a regular 
antenna (no satellite).  Thank God those days are gone...may 
they never return.

Sometimes I go outside in my underpants and tee shirt,but it has 
a Welch's Grape Juice stain down the front.I'm trying to prove a 
point,but the neighbors don't understand,and have asked me to 
please stop.

...if I could have just seen your face when you read that,I 
would have spent the whole weekend laughing my butt off!

Your translations and explanations of Islam are interesting, but miles besides the point.

Here's why:

The religion itself is currently being gravely perverted by criminal regimes and elements.

These same states and elements are the ones setting examples for the muslim world in 
these confusing times.

It is interesing to see that you post the freedoms of individuals, the right of fair trial, the 
rejection of discrimination etc. in the Koran, 
then look at what's going on in all Islamic states; even the most basic of human rights are 
violated daily...

The whole situation around Islam is best compared to Christianity in its' very worst days.
The days of "wiches", the Inquisition, the Cruisades, the murdering of protestants in 
France and other countries.
Let's just say; the dark ages...

As long as most these fanatics have no perception of individuality and basic human 
rights, of equality between sexes and no respect for life, except when it so pleases 
them, maybe the Americans on this board will read your posts in depth; we don't....

We wonder, if there is a god, what he must be thinking now...


Have A Nice Day, Radio Europe,  from Europe

It's time for this gal to head for the woods! Y'all have a GREAT 
weekend!  Try to get outside and get a little air and 
exercise...it does wonders for the spirit! Hugssssss!

Walter, I think I'm getting used to your particular brand of 
humor...I chuckled.  Now...the point you are trying to make to 
your neighbors is?  Have a good one, friend!

DE EBONICS CRIMMUS POME

Wuz de nite befo Crimmus
And all ower da hood
ereybody wuz sleepin'
Dey wuz sleeping' real good

We hunged up our stockins
an hoped like de heck
that ole Sanna Clause
Be bringin' our check.

All o'de fambily
Wuz layin in de beds
While Ripple and Thunderbird
danced through de heads.

I passed out onna flo
right nex to my maw
when I heard sech a fuss
I thunk "it mus be de law!!!"

I looked out thru de bars
what covered de doe
'spectin de sheriff
wit a warrant for sho!

and what did I see
I said "lawd, look at dat!"
Wuz a huge wata mellon
pulled by giant wharf rats!

Now ober all de years,
Sanna Clause he be white
but looks liken us bros
gets a black Sanna dis nite.

Faster dan a Po'leese car
my home boy he came
he whupped on dem wharf rats
an called em by name!

On Leroy, on "Lonzo,
an on Willie Lee!
On Saphire, on Chenequa!
Dey wuz a sight to see.

As he landed dat watta mellon
out her in da skreet,
I knowed it was fo' sho
Da damndest sight I ebber see.

He didn't go down no chimbley
He picked da lox on muh doe
and I sez to my self,
"shit!! He done dis befo!"

He had dis big bag
Full of prezents I 'shect
Wid Air Jordans and fake gold
to wear roun my neck.

But he left no good prezents
Jus started stealin my shit!
Got my drugs, go my guns!
Even got my burglar's kit!

Wit my stuff in de bag
out da winnow he flewed
I woulda tried to cetch him
but he stoled my nife too!

He jumped on dat watta mellon
an whipped out a switch
he wuz gone in a seccon
Dat son of a bitch!

Next year I be hopin
annutha Sanna we git
Cuz diz here Sanna Clause
Jus ain't werf a shit!!!!

Yes, runes. I use the ogham also

If you do not believe the tape it is real, and that bin-dumbass 
is an animal, please go live in the caves. Or get some 
brains,one or the other.

I'm the tool of the government and industry too, I,m destined to 
rule and regulate you, I,m vile and valisious but you can't look 
away. i make you think I'm delicioud with the things that I say. 
have you guessed me yet?





answer, below\/





I.m the slime oozing out of your TV set

If you look REALLY close--you'll see it's your "god" and so 
called "prophet" that's fake. Just ask your heros at Tora 
Bora. They're learning at an accelerated rate what a farce it 
is. (Better hurry though---they don't have much time).

Also--I've read where you very same assholes cannot have 
"symbols" or representations of your prophet----so why must 
you OWN every holy site in the middle east.

Oh yeah--my mistake-----I almost forgot what hypocrites you 
are.

In your first post above, you posted a The Night Before 
Christmas as a racial slur that could not even be aired on 
network television. 
 Then you come back with some kind of hazy referance to slime
oozing out of TV sets? You better clean up that brain matter
oozing out of your ears you two faced shitforbrains.
 Maybe all your relatives will pitch in, and you can get that
tumor in your head removed for Christmas.
 Merry Christmas, Ho Ho Ho!

US Aid to Israel

Ya,
for all you moderates out there,
just remember to pay your taxes.

Uncle Sam will do the rest for ya...

$3 Billion a year to Israel

over $91 Billion and growing...

Just to deal with your kind...
Binny Laden and the Taliban Camel Boys 
Never got Money like
the blood hungry Zionists!
At least they know they need to build a country up...
not wrap women in Burp-ah's and lock them away...

Ya Camel Boys,
Remember this
Israel Owns America
Bush answers to his Zionist Boss'
Just like his boot licking daddy.

If you don't think Israel got USA by the balls,
you better wake up and smell your camel:

US 'Aid' to Israel :

19 February 2001
The government of Israel has signed a letter of offer and 
acceptance with the United States Department of Defense for the 
purchase of nine Boeing AH-64D Apache Longbow helicopters, 
described as being able to "rapidly detect, classify, prioritize 
and engage stationary or moving enemy targets at standoff ranges 
in nearly all weather environments."  The total value of the 
contract including aircraft, ordnance, spares, training and 
support is expected to approach US $500 million.
 Boeing Press Release, 19 February 2001 


19 January 2001
"Despite reluctance from some on Capitol Hill to start full-
scale production, President Clinton today promised Israel that 
it would be the first country to purchase the United States' 
most advanced fighter aircraft, the F-22 Raptor. Even had he not 
already lifted almost every U.S. arms export barrier, the 
promise to sell the radar-evading, stealth aircraft to Israel 
would solidify Clinton's legacy as the most arms export happy 
President in U.S. history."
 Arms Trader Insider #39 (published by The Council for a Livable 
World) 


11 December 2000
The Israeli government has announced plans to expand the Fiscal 
Year 2001 defence budget by US $487 million to bring it to a 
total of US $10.1 billion.  The extra money allocated to the 
defence budget will largely be used to cover rising costs of 
ongoing military operations in occipied Palestinian territory.
 Defense News 


6 December 2000
Israel's Elbit Systems said on Wednesday that its subsidiary, El-
Op Electro Optics Industries, received a $5.8 million contract 
to supply laser designators to the U.S. Navy for use on F-18 
aircraft.  El-Op, which specialises in the development and 
manufacturing of electro-optic systems and products, will supply 
the systems by February 2002, Elbit said in a statement.  El-
Op's systems are currently on board a number of attack 
helicopters, including the Cobra, Apache and Comanche, as well 
as on F-16 and F-18 fighter planes.  The company is wholly owned 
by Elbit Systems.
 Reuters 


22 September 2000
The Israeli Government has requested a possible sale of 14 non-
MDE Beech King Air B200CT/T fixed wing aircraft along with spare 
parts and logistics personnel services from the United States.  
The proposed sale would cost an estimated US $125 million.
 Office of the Assistant Secretary of Defense, 22 September 2000 


20 September 2000
Support is growing in the United States after the failed July's 
Camp David peace talks to decrease foreign aid to Israel.  
Israel currently receives about US $3 billion a year in US 
foreign aid and has received more than US $66 billion in grants 
and US $15 billion in loans since 1949.
 Washington Times, 20 September 2000 


17 August 2000
"In July, Israel canceled the sale of the PHALCON airborne early 
warning system to China after the U.S. Congress threatened to 
deduct the value of the sale from U.S. aid to Israel. . . .The 
PHALCON is wholly Israeli, but Israel agreed to cancel the sale 
because it is completely dependent on Washington for major 
weapons systems such as fighter planes and attack helicopters, 
and receives $3 billion each year in American military aid."
 Jack Katzenell, Associated Press 


14 July 2000
"The Israeli Government has suspended the sale of the Phalcon 
airborne early-warning system to Beijing and now expects 
compensation from the USA.  US officials and congressional 
leaders said they will not agree to compensation for the 
suspension of the deal, which Israeli officials calculate could 
have amounted to $1.5 billion.  Instead, the US officials say, 
the Clinton Administration and Congress will seek to increase 
defence funding to Israel as part of any Middle East peace 
settlement.
 Steve Rodan and Bryan Bender, Janes Defence Weekly 


14 January 2000
"Lockheed Martin received a contract today to produce 50 F-16 
aircraft for the government of Israel. 

"The contract awarded by the U.S. Department of Defense 
completes negotiations that began after Israel's July selection 
of the advanced F-16 as its new fighter, and follows a letter of 
acceptance signed between the two countries in September. 

"The total program, including the aircraft, mission equipment 
and a support package, is worth about $2.5 billion to Lockheed 
Martin, various suppliers and U.S. government agencies. 

"The agreement provides Israel an option to purchase 60 
additional aircraft that would bring the total program value to 
$4.5 billion, if exercised for the full 110 aircraft."
 Lockeed Martin press release 


5 January 2000
"Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak has asked the US for Cruise 
missiles as part of a US $17 billion security package, in return 
for withdrawing from the Golan Heights, the Ha'aretz daily 
reported Tuesday.  Tomahawk missiles would give Israel long-
range capabilities against threats from distant countries, the 
paper added, presumably referring to the hard-line anti-Israel 
states of Iraq, Iran and Libya. 

". . .The request also includes 2 squadrons of Apache 
helicopters, Blackhawk helicopters, Hercules planes, 3 AWACS 
planes, refueling planes, a ground station for collecting real-
time information from US satellites and funding for the 
completion of missile defense systems, including the laser-based 
Nautilus system for downing Katyusha rockets, Ha'aretz said." 
 Bridge News 


DO YOU THINK YOU CAN TOP THAT FIRE POWER???

Didn't think so!

Bye Bye Bin Laden

see ya
wouldn't want to be ya

Ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo..............
. Well so much for YOUR Sense of Humor :o)
That's why it's GET A GRIP! Now we don't do any racial slurring 
here at aaaaaaaaaaaaaallllllllllll now do we?????

Frank Zappa lyrics...
(slime)

Us black folks dont take to kindly to that kind of humor. We
dont all live in the ghetto and deal dope, although me and my
boys knock down 500k a year off you crackers every year!
 The focas of this board has been the terrorist attacks that
occured and the politics, religion and any factor that plays
into what happened and/or the punishment currently being
dealt out. Sure, on this board Muslims take a bashing but I
think most of it is due a lack of condeming bin Laden, his
organization or all the other terrorist groups that are,
in their own words, murdering in the name of Allah, Mohammed,
and Islam.
 As far as you go whitebread punk, we laugh our asses off
watching you unrythmic punks try to dance at the club, going
way the hell out of your way to try and act black, then come
to us with daddys money to get your crack (both kinds)!
 Whats up with the KKK these days? They aint done shit since
they fucked up Geraldo Riveras' nose in Janesville, Wisconsin.
Shouldnt have fucked with Geraldo huh?
 

You will obey me as I lead you,
 And Eat the garbage that I feed you.
 Until the day that we don't need you,
 Don't run for help,no one will heed you!

White people don't like to see or hear the word cracker any more 
than YOU like to see or hear nigger.Got it?Great!

Iz very sawwy masser, Iz be steppin to yohs beet now fo shooow.
No mo cracker callin no matta wat. Saltine ok masser, o maybe
Ritz good, not to wite not to dark, juss write.
 

A thousand miles can be reached in a single step. A country can 
be won in a single day. A life can become a legand in a single 
moment.
       This Christmas is of Christ,
           He is our Druid,
  The walk of peace is the walk of the bravest on earth!
                     Merlyn /|\

You win!, everyone else, .........
Don't you eat that yellow snow watch out where the huskies 
go......
As fo' black humor......I just can't take credit. but hey I made 
my point in the pointless forest (as the son of god would say) 

Muslims are very offended and pushed to thinking Usama might be 
right, food for thought, Just set your sights on Usama instead 
and I think we will all be better off.
  As for the gay angle, well it's natures way of telling you, 
somethings wrong...... (yes it's another song) can you guess?

I am sorry.  I have been trying to control my anger.  You see my 
daddy gets drunk and beats me sometimes and I have to come 
online to vent my frustrations.  It is hard being in 7th grade 
and having no friends.  That is why I created Zac, my alter 
ego.  He is not as smart as I claim to be.  I made him that way 
so I could feel superior to him and boost my elitist attitude.  
When I get frustrated I actually think I can kill people whom I 
have no way of tracking down online.  I hate being lied to also 
because my mother lies to me all of the time when she tells me 
daddy is working late when I know he is really at the bars 
getting drunk again.  I still feel superior to all of you 
though.  So all of you can kiss my ass.

Your mind has been stuffed into my mould and you will do as you 
are told untill the rights to you are sold, CNN.....
  
But your wise men don't know what it's like.. to be thick as a 
brick...I'm a bad dream that I just had today.. Congress

U Mother Fuck screwed our nation once we find you we'll skinner 
u, get an elephant rape u and Chop off ur balls and feed them to 
u while ur mom watchs with JOY!
BITH
DICK
SHIT EATER
OTHER FUCKER
SUCK MY GOD DAMN HAIRY BALLS

New York has been my soul since I took my first breath fifty 
years ago.
I rememember my city with joy and wonder, so big and powerful, 
that no one will EVER be able to put under.
I remember the honks of cabbies in the distance and the big 
smoking advertisement in Times Square with smoke coming threw 
the advertise's mouth.
I remember the color, the sounds, the Central Park that seems 
like a little country in itself,  The quick pace and click clack 
of ladies in their high heeled shoes, all on their way to a 
magical somewhere...
The museums so rich and stately and the skyscrapers that will 
give you a creak in your neck if you stare too long.  
The beautiful Greenwich Village and the hippie that I once was, 
running barefoot all over the city and meeting strange new 
lovers.  I remember the theaters where magic was only feet away 
from me and the concerts that filled me with so much sound, that 
my ears would still be ringing on the subway home.  Monsters can 
be the cowards that they are and put a plane through our 
buildings, but they can never, but ever, destroy our spirit, for 
we New Yorkers are a tough breed.  We are the ultimate fist in 
the velvet glove.  We stand together when times are rough, we 
will never surrender for we hang tough.
New York is the very pulse of my heartbeat and will continue 
doing so until my dying day.  When my time on earth is finished, 
it will be on New York soil that I will rest.
How lucky to have been born in a city, that is truly the best!

Amen.

the current time in
Afghanistan

07:28 AM
Sunday, December 16, 2001

Greetings:
  I am John and may I present to you, my book of Hope!

http://www.childrensfairytales.com/LittleBookOfHope.html

Know the power of the word called, Peace! 
For, it is those who know Peace, whom are the most powerful in 
the eyes of our God and know his secrets for everlasting life! 

Very good insight, The Calqued were not quite ready on time. The 
phase II operation was a premature shot by a cell that spread 
anthrax letters. Unknowing that they suck at what they do, it 
killed the messenger not the person intended. The "dark cloud" 
is going to be a more direct attack to achieve the original 
goal. Problem is that now Usama has much less ability and his 
Cells are in the dark. The effort is doomed to fail, but will 
give the USA any and all the reason it needs to WIPE THE EARTH 
CLEAN of the extremists. Usama is a strung out drug addict, the 
though pattern clearly shows this. Extreme paranoia is a very 
common result of heroin and coke addiction. Also delusion, poor 
insight and need to act are results of addiction. It is also a 
reality that they feed off of the income from drug trade, using 
legitimate business as a cover. If you sell or use these types 
of drugs you are feeding the fire so to speak. It is a critical 
time for us all to stop the abuse of these life saving 
pharmaceuticals. If you sell drugs to a child you are a real 
problem to society and a child abuser and murderer. Countless 
families have been ruined by coke, crack & heroin. If you sell 
or use these drugs you are just like the Taliban & Usama. I send 
this message in hope it will bring to light the root of the 
problem and the resulting reality of 9-11. The physiological 
fall out has become more than the world can bear. Please flush 
the crap down the toilet where it belongs and give peace a 
chance. The money is just not worth it and money is a problem in 
it's own right. No amount of money can replace what these drugs 
take away from your life. 
                    Merlyn /|\

Very good insight, The AlQueda were not quite ready on time. The 
phase II operation was a premature shot by a cell that spread 
anthrax letters. Unknowing that they suck at what they do, it 
killed the messenger not the person intended. The "dark cloud" 
is going to be a more direct attack to achieve the original 
goal. Problem is that now Usama has much less ability and his 
Cells are in the dark. The effort is doomed to fail, but will 
give the USA any and all the reason it needs to WIPE THE EARTH 
CLEAN of the extremists. Usama is a strung out drug addict, the 
though pattern clearly shows this. Extreme paranoia is a very 
common result of heroin and coke addiction. Also delusion, poor 
insight and need to act are results of addiction. It is also a 
reality that they feed off of the income from drug trade, using 
legitimate business as a cover. If you sell or use these types 
of drugs you are feeding the fire so to speak. It is a critical 
time for us all to stop the abuse of these life saving 
pharmaceuticals. If you sell drugs to a child you are a real 
problem to society and a child abuser and murderer. Countless 
families have been ruined by coke, crack & heroin. If you sell 
or use these drugs you are just like the Taliban & Usama. I send 
this message in hope it will bring to light the root of the 
problem and the resulting reality of 9-11. The physiological 
fall out has become more than the world can bear. Please flush 
the crap down the toilet where it belongs and give peace a 
chance. The money is just not worth it and money is a problem in 
it's own right. No amount of money can replace what these drugs 
take away from your life. 
                    Merlyn /|\

Many in Arab World Call Bin Laden Video a Fake 
 
 DUBAI (Reuters) - 

UAE CALLS TAPE CONCLUSIVE 

However, the United Arab Emirates and a senior diplomat from 
another Gulf Arab state said they were persuaded of bin Laden's 
role in the suicide plane attacks on the World Trade Center in 
New York and the Pentagon in Washington. 

"There is no doubt in my mind that bin Laden was behind those 
operations. The tape confirms that in a way that leaves no room 
for doubt," UAE Information Minister Sheikh Abdullah bin Zaid al-
Nahayan said. 

The videotape was aired in the Middle East by Abu Dhabi 
Television and al-Jazeera satellite channel after its release by 
the Pentagon. 

It shows bin Laden chatting informally with fellow-militants and 
saying he had been more optimistic than his colleagues about how 
much damage the attacks would inflict, but he had not dared hope 
they would bring down the WTC towers completely. 

"It is a confession no doubt about that. But I fear that it will 
not make bin Laden any less of a martyr when he is killed," the 
Gulf diplomat said. 

U.S. forces are bombing an area in Afghanistan where bin Laden 
and followers are believed holed up. 

"If the tape says anything it says the Americans are still 
looking for evidence, but evidence should come before and not 
after," a Gulf academic said. "The whole thing seems far-
fetched." 

A Lebanese resident of the United Arab Emirates however sided 
with Washington. "The Arabic was not very clear but I think 
after seeing the tape he is a criminal... whatever the United 
States said was true." 

http://www.reuters.com/news_article.jhtml?
type=worldnews&StoryID=453331
 
 
 

Well, I visited your site, you were clever in doing it.
You are likely the more intelligent Muslim on this board.
By the way, how comes you also speak japan? Watashi wa nihongo
hanashimasen...
I'd like to give an advise to Afghanistan. Now don't go with a 
too havy hand in modernising the land and in assuming western 
life-styles. I think, straightforward passing from an extreme to 
the other would be a mistake. It would risk to hurt people's 
Islamic and traditional identity, and produce an opposite 
reaction after a while as it very often happens in such 
cases. People could feel it as betraying their fundamental 
values and imposing a change of identity on them. So there would 
be in your future a risk of political and social flip-flopping 
between historical/traditional identity and Islamic 
fundamentalism on the one side, and modernity, democracy, 
progress and massive westernising on the other one.
I think priorities now are respecting women (finally!!), 
developing concepts of democracy, justice and freedom, and very 
progressively building a social, cultural and economical 
progress. That wouldn't have to also include sexual corruption 
and unrestrained consumerism. I think you'd have to just take 
the best of our culture, but doing it progressively.

Intelligent and scored in the top 35% of the world? But I think 
you did no objectivity-tests, else you'd have been scored in the 
bottom 5% of the world.

I am sorry.  I have been trying to control my anger.  You see my 
daddy gets drunk and beats me sometimes and I have to come 
online to vent my frustrations.  It is hard being in 7th grade 
and having no friends.  That is why I created Zac, my alter 
ego.  He is not as smart as I claim to be.  I made him that way 
so I could feel superior to him and boost my elitist attitude.  
When I get frustrated I actually think I can kill people whom I 
have no way of tracking down online.  I hate being lied to also 
because my mother lies to me all of the time when she tells me 
daddy is working late when I know he is really at the bars 
getting drunk again.  I still feel superior to all of you 
though.  So all of you can kiss my ass.

Well, I'm finished with all of this.  I doubt I'll be 
coming back to see this pathetic drivel again, so no worries, 
your pathetic, bigoted, pro-american, anti-muslim sentiments 
won't be challenged anymore.
     See, I would've been glad to argue my point to all of you, 
until a few of you realized that you could never beat me 
intellectually, so you'd better just piss me off enough to 
leave.  Good job on all of that by the way, the impersonations 
of me were really pretty far off though.  
    Anyway, thank you all for showing me once again exactly why 
I fight against everything that made you.  Well, I'll just leave 
you with one final free thought.

"When everyone is against you, it means that you are absolutely 
wrong -- or you are absolutely right. "

-- Albert Guinon 

    Thanks for the reassurance.  Until we meet again...

Ben Ben Ben

"I admit, I'm elitest, it saves a lot of time.  It 
bores me to argue with the mass of you about the same issues 
over and over". 
                                                                 
You all try to seem so superior, so educated and 
eloquent, while accusing us of being elitist.  

I was very disappointed to make up this morning and not here 
that Osama bin Laden was dead.   The thought that he might no be 
at Tora-Bora sucks. Oh well, some other day. We will kill that 
scumbag.  In the  meantime, keep bombing.  Remember those dumb 
fucks who were suggesting that maybe we might or should stop 
bombing for Ramadun ?  Assholes.  The Taliban would still be 
there.  

Anybody got a favotite Afghanistan moment ? (So far).  I know I 
do.  It was when we bombed the al Jezeera office/studio in 
Kabul. No wait. Maybe when we got Omar's house on the first 
night.

Do not be so sure, those al-Queda sure gave up in a hell of a
hurry suddenly.

BIN-KIN'S DNA
COULD ID FIEND 
 
By CLEMENTE LISI 
-----------------------------------------------------------------
---------------
December 16, 2001 -- The CIA reportedly has obtained DNA samples 
from Osama bin Laden's half brother and will use it to identify 
the terror lord if he is killed. The half brother, who was not 
identified, provided the government with a blood sample earlier 
this year when he was living in Boston, London's Mail on Sunday 
reports. 
The terror chief is the only child of Alia Ghanem and Mohammed 
bin Laden, who has 51 other children by different wives. 

Fears that the Saudi-born millionaire may be using look-alikes 
to elude capture prompted the U.S. government to seek samples of 
bin Laden DNA, the newspaper said. 

U.S. officials said they have not sent any forensic experts to 
Afghanistan but have said some American troops are trained to 
take blood for genetic sampling. 

http://www.nypost.com/news/worldnews/36769.htm
---------------------------------------------------------------=

 I dont have a favorite moment yet, we have a long way to go
past Afghanistan. The American Taliban is a classic though, that
dumbass keeps digging his hole deeper and deeper and his daddys
bigshot laywer hasnt even told him to "shut the fuck up already".
And that will save his ass, unless he didnt request a laywer.

See how easily I get frustrated.  I can't take it when people 
make fun of me.  When I am in school people make fun of me and I 
just get really upset about it and go and cry in the bathroom.  
I am really just a little pussy who can't handle the truth or 
someone else's opinion.  I try to act tough and smart online to 
make myself feel better.  I think that I am the only person in 
the world and only my opinion matters.  Maybe instead of 
insulting people right off the bat, I should try and carry on a 
rational conversation first before running my big mouth.  I 
think that is why I have no friends (well except for Zac, my 
imaginary friend).  I hope all of you are happy.  You made me 
cry.  Just go away!  I never want to talk to any of you ever 
again!!!

Re: My last post.  The word "here" should be "hear". Spelling 
don't count around here (hear), does it ?  Grammar neither, 
right ?

Too Serious brought up the name, Geraldo Riveras, a born again 
journalist it seems. I've seen his talk shows...Jay Leno said, 
Mr.Riveras was adamant in his wish to track down Bin Laden to 
one of his cave hideouts and interview him. Mr.Leno suggested 
blowing up the cave entrance with both inside,...kind of a 2 for 
the price of 1 special offer you'd get down at the local 
supermarket. Sounds O.K. to me, but am I being unfair?

Secretary Colin Powell was interviewed, on Fox News, in which he 
presented his views very well. However, he did say in all 
seriousness that the Al-Qaeda forces wherever they are in the 
world would primarily be found in, and I quote "mainly warm, 
dark, wet places". Any idea what he means?

Lastly Sen.Leibowitz (Dem) has his eyes firmly fixed on Iraq, 
and is pressing for the U.S. to openly aid the Iraqi opposition 
within that state and has been saying as much for the last 2 
years or so. In short proposing a similar approach to that which 
took place in Afghanistan. A good idea?

As much as I do appreciate EagleEye's compliment, YOU sir, 
amongst others have been holdin' down this board.   

From your post I can assume you've been scanning this board for 
at least a short while. Although race ideally should'nt have a 
bearing on the issue, in regards to an individual's right to 
voice their opinion, nevertheless speaking as a black American 
what may I ask are your views on the events resulting from Sept 
11 and how you think the U.S.A. and it's allies have conducted 
the campaign so far? I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on 
the matter. Excuse me for being so forward on this issue, 
assuming you're still reading the board of course.

Also, what do you mean non-blacks are 'unrythmic'..surely not!:-)

To Ben just saying...Bye.

Other than the obvious humorous response of a typical American
male, my guess on what Powell would be talking about is Idonesia
and the Philippines. Jungles. (get out the napalm)
 I totally agree with supporting Iraqi opposition forces and
feel this should have been done long before now. The question is
how to do it. Saddam is not above putting down any kind of
opposition with any means necessary to stay in control. Now what
to do, since we missed the boat on this one after Gulf War?
 After reliving the massacre at Mogadishu the other night on
television, dragging the dead, naked American soldiers through
the dirt streets, with people celebrating and the children
jumping up and down on old cars cheering, the first thing I think
of is revenge. Pay backs are a bitch! This actually was Americas
first contact with bin-Ladens al-Queda, in 1994 I think, not 
sure.
 Im gettin all wound up now, OMMMM. OMMMM. Much better.
I dont know the answers, I tend to run a little hot, but my
advice to all Americans out of work right now is, we are going
to need more bombs, aircraft to deliver them and parts for both.
 I think we will have a massive amount of intell from Afghanistan
that will take a couple months to sort through and hopefully
that will guide us on the next step and not another attack of
some sort.
 U.K.Citizen, with the reports of a plan of attack against London
Im sure all there are concerned as well. Im sure all people of
middle eastern background are carefully screened in U.K. as well.
 Jerry Rivera aka Geraldo Rivera is a total joke in the U.S.
to anybody with a brain. I cant belive FOX news hired him. I cant
say I would wish death upon him, though if it happened,
so be it. I think Too Serious may have been trying to prove a
point even though he is actually a caucasion male. LOL!